A Very Common Tactical Mistake

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ViolentlyCar

Senior Member

11-30-2011

(I had a long post typed up, but Firefox decided to crash on me, so you get the abridged version)

See the attached image at the bottom of this post.

Let's assume you have the points on your side of the map, and the windmill. Your opponents control the remaining points on the map. If you are in the area circled in red, you are making a mistake.

Why is this a mistake?

- It's very dangerous. It doesn't look like it, but you have almost no vision of your opponents, so you can easily be ganked. If you are killed, you are almost guaranteed to lose the windmill. If you escape, you are almost guaranteed to not be in the condition to defend the windmill, and you will lose the windmill.

- If you just won the windmill fight, you're likely to be missing health or mana, or you have enough gold buy some new items. Your opponents are going to be respawning soon - why would you hang around in an area trying to get a little extra gold if you're not renewing or using the resources you've already gained?

- You bait your team into joining you here. Even if you get into a straight up, normal fight here, that's a mistake. Why are you fighting in a neutral area over an advantageous one? People say "fight on the point" for a reason: it's a better percentage play that helps you win more games. If you barely lose a fight in the middle of the dangerous zone, it's a fight you probably would have won on your own point.

Where should I be instead?

- If you have a bunch of gold, or you're missing a significant amount of health, you should be at base. Often times, people hang around too much after capturing a point. Sometimes, you need to recover as fast as possible and get back out on to the point.

- Pressuring bottom. If you've gotten out of a windmill fight and you're healthy, and your team is reinforcing the point and the other team is still respawning, often times, attacking bottom lane is the best you can do. If you can kill the bottom laner and capture the point, you will often force them to send an extra person bottom to help take it back. You can't always do this, but it's often a strong option, especially on mobile champs.

- If pressuring bottom is a bad idea at the time, sometimes you simply need to wait in the area above the control point. I know that this is boring and uninteresting, but sometimes it's the best option.

- If the storm buff is up, and no one else on your team seems to be going for that, get it. It's very powerful and I often see it just sitting there with no one caring about it.

- Hanging around in the middle part of the map (but not in a dangerous spot). Being around the speed shrine on your side between windmill and your mid is a good place to be, so you can easily react to action that happens away from the windmill.

Remember, all of these are judgment calls. Learn to assess the situation, and do what's right. Standing in the dangerous zone is almost never the right thing.

When can I be in that area?

- If you've just wiped out their entire team, and you're a very mobile champion, you can generally afford to wipe out ONE creep wave before recalling.

- On rare occasion, a very large creep wave for the other team has built up, but it's too far for you to kill from the safety of the windmill. Sometimes you need to wander forth to clear the wave. This is very dangerous and if you feel like you're in any immediate danger, it is not worth it. You being alive is more helpful to your team than clearing out a big creep wave. Be very careful if this happens.

- There is no other good time. You gain 120 gold per wave if you last hit perfectly. You give the other team more gold than that if you die and let them capture your windmill. It's not worth the risk.

I'm making this post because it is seriously getting to me how often I see my one or two teammates right in the middle of this zone, idly farming, and they get jumped on and we literally lose the game because of that moment. I lost a ton of games in November, and I thought it was just horribly unlucky matchmaking, but then I realized: I'm the one causing this. Because I'm a good windmill fighter, and my would often control the point. By doing so, I gave my teammates the opportunity to make this mistake. I don't begrudge them too much. It took me a long time to understand just how dangerous this area is. It seems fairly safe, and the punishment doesn't seem that great, but it is the Dominion equivalent of pushing up as much as possible when the rest of the other team is MIA. The punishment and danger is so great that it makes me want to concede the windmill in exchange for constant pressure on the bot lane, and to give my opponents chance to run into this area so that they, too, can cost their team the game. But I don't want to have to game the system this way. I want people to understand just how much it hurts their team to get caught out in this space. Again, sorry for the brevity; I had a much more detailed post typed up, but it got eaten by a browser crash. If you disagree, or want to ask questions, I'll try to elaborate more in replies.


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Lameador

Senior Member

11-30-2011

Here is the probelm, if you are not in that area you are not applying pressure to their mid, since you are not pushing, then they can freely attack your bottom or your mid without fear of losing mid. Being top is even worse. a Good alternative though is waiting on the shrine, Which sometimes its a good idea if you are in a group, bu if you are alone, its even more dangerous. Waiting on your own shrine though may be a better idea, but you may be too far to defend if they 2man top.

Being that spot is ok, if you have a backup plan. Yes dont be there if you dont know where they are.


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ViolentlyCar

Senior Member

11-30-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lameador View Post
Here is the probelm, if you are not in that area you are not applying pressure to their mid
Wait, why is this important again? Attacking their mid is an extremely risky move and almost never pays off. You don't need to pressure it. All you need to do is alleviate pressure on your own mid/windmill, which you can do from safety.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lameador View Post
then they can freely attack your bottom or your mid without fear of losing mid. Being top is even worse. a Good alternative though is waiting on the shrine, Which sometimes its a good idea if you are in a group, bu if you are alone, its even more dangerous. Waiting on your own shrine though may be a better idea, but you may be too far to defend if they 2man top.
Good point; I had this point in my original post, but forgot to add it into this one. Editing it in now...


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Speusippus

Senior Member

11-30-2011

Don't you need to keep them from pushing there and thus getting enough minions out to overwhelm the windmill?


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Thestuey

Senior Member

11-30-2011

When you're in the position the op is talking about and you're full hp/mana, already spent gold etc, you should be looking to either get your relic or camp the speed shrines. The former gives you a huge boon for the next fight, the latter allows you to quickly get to where ever the opposing team is making their next move. Pressuring the other teams mid is almost always not worth it.


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ViolentlyCar

Senior Member

11-30-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Speusippus View Post
Don't you need to keep them from pushing there and thus getting enough minions out to overwhelm the windmill?
You can usually do this safely right in front of your own point. It is conceivable enough that you might need to push forward to clear out a particularly large wave. I'll add it in with a warning.


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UglyPete

Senior Member

11-30-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by ViolentlyCar View Post

- If the storm buff is up, and no one else on your team seems to be going for that, get it. It's very powerful and I often see it just sitting there with no one caring about it.
This can very easily get you killed. The only things that can give you vision of the enemy team entering the jungle are Teemo Shrooms and JITB's placed around the FOW paths leading from their nexus.

The storm buff should be taken solo only if you just wiped the enemy team and they are still on death timers, or you have vision of the entire enemy team and are not needed anywhere else.

Having 1 person die in the jungle can snowball the enemy team and lose you the game.


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ViolentlyCar

Senior Member

11-30-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by UglyPete View Post
This can very easily get you killed. The only things that can give you vision of the enemy team entering the jungle are Teemo Shrooms and JITB's placed around the FOW paths leading from their nexus.

The storm buff should be taken solo only if you just wiped the enemy team and they are still on death timers, or you have vision of the entire enemy team and are not needed anywhere else.

Having 1 person die in the jungle can snowball the enemy team and lose you the game.
This generally applies to what to do after a windmill fight, as an alternative to just running out into the dangerous zone. Obviously, if you don't know where they are, you don't do this. Like I said in my post, you need to make a judgment call and know when it's appropriate to do the things in my list.


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Lameador

Senior Member

11-30-2011

Quote:
Wait, why is this important again? Attacking their mid is an extremely risky move and almost never pays off. You don't need to pressure it. All you need to do is alleviate pressure on your own mid/windmill, which you can do from safety.
As I said, if mid isnt pressured, they dont have any reason to put a man there, leaving 5 man free to get the rest of the map.


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ViolentlyCar

Senior Member

11-30-2011

Do you mean four men? If that's the case, then you have the defensive advantage. If they send five up there... well, you're just going to get bot for free.


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