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I'm going to clear this up once and for all.

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The Letter CtrlZ

Senior Member

12-07-2011

I have seen at least 3 threads lately about how Armor/MR is best used in moderation, as they have "diminishing return".

Until last night, I thought the same thing. I always bought a little armor and MR on non-tanks, seeing as it was so much more important.

But now think of it this way: If I have 100 armor, that means I have 50% reduction. This means that if I have 1000 health and my opponent has 100 AD, it will take 20 shots to kill me. No armor means 10 shots. 300 armor means 30 shots.

Of course, for anyone past 6th grade math, this should seem counter-intuitive. If every point I get gives me .98% (approximately) of the value of my last one, then it is diminishing return.

The only way to understand this is by first understanding what health is. Health is one of the two factors that go into your DC (Damage Capacity). The other one is your armor. So therefore, your armor isn't just protecting your health. It's also protecting... your armor.

So because of this, your armor protects itself, and therefore has no diminishing return. Because as you stack armor, you are giving better protection to your DC, and having linearly more durability.

For those of you who like it in math form, here's the equation:

a = armor, d = damage (of opponent), h = health, and y = hits required to kill you.


y=h/(100/(100+a))*d

Try a few different a's. It's linear.

So this should clear things up. Armor/MR are linear, and the only difference between them and health is "max health %" spells, which favor Armor/MR, and true damage spells, which favor health.

-7


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MorikTheMad

Senior Member

12-07-2011

All explained nicely here, as it has been so for a while:
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Armor
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Magic_resistance


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TheOneMillion

Senior Member

12-07-2011

Quote:
But now think of it this way: If I have 100 armor, that means I have 50% reduction. This means that if I have 1000 health and my opponent has 100 AD, it will take 20 shots to kill me. No armor means 10 shots. 300 armor means 30 shots.


This is wrong. As they say on the armor page, each 1 armor gives you 1% more Effective health. Using your example, 1000 health, 100 damage. With zero armor, it takes 10 hits to kill you. With 100 armor, 50% reduc, it takes 20 hits to kill you (each attack is doing 50 damage to you). With 200 (66% reduc) armor, 1000/33, it will now take 30 hits to kill you. 100 armor just gave you 10 more hits until you die compared to going from 0 - 100 armor. Each point of armor is worth the same amount no matter how much you have. However, The higher your armor, the higher the value of health becomes. That is the tricky part, when to start stacking health, and when to start stacking armor. Remember though, that health helps against both physical and magic damage, while armor or MR is only one of the two, and true damage ignores both armor and MR, making health much better if they are using even amounts of both types of damage.


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Valohtar

Senior Member

12-08-2011

Your equation: y=h/(100/(100+a))*d

...where a = armor, d = damage (of opponent), h = health, and y = hits required to kill you

...is calculating Effective Health (EH) in terms of how many hits of a static damage value your health pool can endure before reaching zero. What you call Damage Capacity (DC) is exactly the same thing as EH. Once you find 'y' in your equation, simply multiply it by 100 and you have your EH value in terms of HP rather than hits required to kill you.

Ex// 1000 HP and 100 Armor against 100 AD requires 20 hits to reach zero HP so:

y100=EH
or
20*100=2000EH

You get the same result from the EH equation on the wiki:

h(100+a)/100
or
1000*(100+100)/100=2000EH

EH is linear. Damage reduction from Armor and Magic Resist is not. Using the formula for damage reduction:

100/(100+a)=Damage Multiplier

...we can calculate the percent damage reduced. Here are the values in 100 unit increments from 100 to 600 Armor/MR.

100 Armor/MR reduces physical/magical damage by 50%
200, 66.7%
300, 75%
400, 80%
500, 83.3%
600, 85.7%


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Ciderhelm

Master Recruiter

12-08-2011

It is correct to say Armor has diminishing returns.

It is also correct to say that Armor has a linear effect on Effective Health, and the concept of Effective Health illustrates that well.

But Effective Health does not exist to make that illustration. Instead, it's there to clearly define when Health is more statistically beneficial than Armor and vice versa. If you have 75% damage reduction, 1 point of Health is the equivalent of 4 points of Health with 0% damage reduction, and the concept is there to tell you that you need to stop worrying about Armor if Health is giving better EH returns.

(Obviously there are more things involved, such as true damage, % health attacks, magic damage, etc)


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Valohtar

Senior Member

12-08-2011

To make it more clear as to when it's more beneficial to get more armor or magic resist vs health and vise versa, I've attached a simple chart indicating the different values of effective hp (EHP) for a champion at anywhere from 100-600 Armor/MR and either 2000hp or 3000hp, I chose to use those hp values as they are realistic and easily achieved in the game. I only used two BaseHP values because I wanted to keep it simple. To get more accurate numbers for each instance where you are making decisions in-game you should calculate these values for your current and proposed build and weigh the gains against the gold cost for the items.

As you can see, starting with 2k base hp and 200 armor your EHP is 6000. If you increase your armor by 100 to 300 your EHP increases to 8000 for a gain of 2000 EHP. Let us instead increase our BaseHP by 1000 to 3k. With 3k BaseHP and 200 armor you now have 9000 EHP. This is a net gain of 1k hp over buying 100 armor, and since our EHP increased by 3000 that's a 300% return on that 1k health you bought from an effective health standpoint.

Of course, this doesn't consider factors such as those described in the above posts (True dmg, %HP dmg etc.) so you have to weigh those factors in by looking at your opponents' builds before you decide what to buy. Still, when considering whether to buy armor/mr or hp, think of them as if they are on opposite sides of a scale. The more Armor/MR you have, the more valuable HP becomes. The more HP you have, the more valuable Armor/MR become. If there's a lot of True damage then HP increases in value. To counter %HP damage, it's not a good idea to stack health unless you also stack the appropriate resistance to counter (ie. MR for Madred's Bloodrazor). Against heavy physical, get lots of armor but not at the expense of health. The same applies to magic resist when dealing with lots of magic damage. Balance is key. Stacking one thing at the exclusion of everything else is never good.


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Warrrrax

Senior Member

12-08-2011

To put it in laymans terms, armor/MR has the same effect whether it is the 50th point or the 250th point. Each point gives you a 1% effective increase in health.

However, it doesn't always LOOK this way. Lets say I have 10 bucks. Someone gives me another 10. I now have 20 bucks. Ive DOUBLED my money! People keep giving me more money so I have 100 bucks now. Awesome.
Then someone gives me a 10. Im still getting 10 bucks, and its still good as ever.
BUT, instead of doubling my cash, it is only giving me 10% more money. So it appears to be a "diminshing returns".

It basically depends on your point of view. Plus theres the fact that after X amount of armor at Y health, that getting more health is better than getting more armor.
Think of it as maximizing the area of a rectangle where X is armor and Y is health. Tons of armor with low health = low effective health.
Balanced armor and balanced health of equal length = maximum area and max effective health.


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vertigodragon

Recruiter

12-08-2011

OP got pwned and not coming back
/thread


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NecessaryWeevil

Member

12-08-2011

Quote:
vertigodragon:
OP got pwned and not coming back
/thread


Wouldn't it be nice if the forums were considered a place where we collaborate to improve our game, rather than a competition?


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MorikTheMad

Senior Member

12-08-2011

Another thing to keep in mind is lifesteal/spellvamp/shielding.

You can think of your real total damage capacity as several different, interrelated things:

- Ability to withstand burst damage: this is the effective health discussed so far in the thread. If you are slammed with a bunch of damage all at once, how much can you survive?

- Ability to withstand damage over time: if you are fighting for say 6 seconds, but you have 50% lifesteal (ryze with WOTA + his ult active), and are healing say 1.5k hp over the interval, and this is the usual state of your teamfights, then you should take this into consideration when making the decision whether to purchase HP vs armor/MR. Same thing for lifesteal. The problem here is that you can either get nuked down before you can heal (if you have a health pool of 500, it doesn't matter if you heal 500 every .01 seconds, if someone can hit you for the full 500 you die), or if you can get locked down for long enough to get nuked down before you can heal.

Another example is damage shields. Mordekaiser's shield, for instance. Such shields are affected by armor and MR. Morde's can be brought up multiple times during a fight, which is in effect healing him for whatever amount of damage the shield ends up taking over the course of the fight.

So, think about your burst capacity (max effective HP), AND your sustained damage capacity (effective HP gained from healing/shielding) when making purchase decisions, and try to balance these, taking into account %hp damage, true damage, bursts that take you down before you can heal back up, and the fact that if you can heal/shield for large amounts, more armor/MR means that healing/shielding is even more effective, so long as you survive to use it.


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