A newbie's guide to everything Dominion

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Nekrogen

Senior Member

12-04-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lameador View Post
I didn't like it at first, but now this is very helpfull for new players.
Some things I would change.

a) I feel the guide talks too much about the first 3 minutes of the game (the windmill fight and else) And I think its as important as 3 minutes into 20 is....
I agree, but most new players are concerned about sitting on that platform thinking "What am I going to do? Where am I going?". That's more or less what I'm trying to alleviate. I do think the time between 3 and 20 minutes is extremely important, but the number of possible permutations of events that can occur during this time is infinite. This is mainly what the reaction, top lane, and bottom lane sections are fore.

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b) You go too deep into bottom making it feel like it's super important, and I don't agree it is, I think its naturally biased on the fact that Nekrogen is a only bottom player. In my opinion though he attaches himself too much too bottom and that generates several loses for him, specially when he is against players that exploit this, lately I have seen reacting slightly better to that and in consecuence being a little more dynamic, but I still see that problem in his play.
You may not think bottom lane is important, but I do, and I have proven why on many occasions. The strategy assumes an optimal layout yes, but if this optimal layout is achieved then it really is a considerable advantage for the team. I have lost many times, but this usually occurs because the other team is smart and ganks it well, top fails particularly hard (loses middle point), it becomes a 2v2 bottom, or I flat out fail against their bottom laner (thus they carried their team). My win margin is still around +165, so I don't really see how this is a valid argument to begin with.

I have already explained that my enthusiasm in the bottom section is merely a byproduct of my focus. I don't think it is more important than bottom lane, but I don't think it is less important either, and the fact that 1 person gets this responsibility for 60-80% of the game is a good indicator of why I'm so enthusiastic about it. At my elo there are a lot of adaptations and changes that occur, but that is to be expected in my range; I don't expect radical differences at lower/mid elo yet, so that is why I provide my optimal setup and insight. I don't plan to change this section aside from some possible issues that may arise.
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c) You name Kog maw and as a common ban, But I don't think it it's common, and really not useful.
Coulda sworn I had his as an uncommon ban, but he is still an extremely strong ban at low-mid elo simply due to his kiting and point defense. He wrecks tanks and has a pretty good escape. Of course he is countered hard by blinkers, but if you don't have a blink, good luck trying to stop him on the point.
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On the "not common but usefull bans"I dont think really any of those is usefull at all, with the notable exception of vayne.

MAYBE Malzahar is usefull if you plan to get Urgot, as I feel malzahar is one of the very few champ that is more usefull than a creep against him in the first 6 minutes of the game.
I have explained their use, so what makes them not useful bans? Every champ has counters, these are just bans that I see in place of some of the more common bans. Believe it or not I see Jax banned more often than I want to see him banned lol.

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d) Also I disagree about the lack of relevance given to team composition. Teams need AT LEAST 1 Tank/bruiser that can facecheck and initate in the jungle. and having 1 range DPS is extremly advantageous. having some good Assasin is important to burst people , specially squishies.
Lets assume that at least 3 of the enemy team is camped out by your speedshrine for a second here. If a tank facechecks the jungle alone, will he live? Doubtful. If your tank facechecks the jungle with the rest of the team, does your team automatically win the fight? No, but you have a better chance of winning it; the element of surprise is pretty important in Dominion. I don't think the team NEEDS a tank, but it certainly helps. There are a lot of "useful" roles to have on the team, but that doesn't make them necessary. A team with a tank, ranged DPS, good bottom laner, assassin and tanky DPS can still fail against a team full of tanky DPS with gap closers. I can't say there is an established teamcomp meta in Dominion yet, which is why I put that blurb in there at the beginning of the section. This doesn't mean there aren't strong suggestions for what your team should have.
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Also I wanted to note I think CV is under appreciated and quite better than people think.
Agreed. If you have some pointers on its use, then I'm all ears. I haven't seen a single player take it in well over 100 games.

Thanks for the feedback . Again, this guide is pretty much entirely written by me with the help and suggestions of other forum goers. My style isn't going to change, and there will be a little bit of bias here and there, but that won't change the fact that it will still help new players get their Dominion shoes on.


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Lameador

Senior Member

12-04-2011

Quote:
You may not think bottom lane is important, but I do, and I have proven why on many occasions.
I never say it wasn't important, I say is not THAT important. And I dont think you proved much more than what I think it is. and your following comments help my point


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I have lost many times, but this usually occurs because the other team is smart and ganks it well, top fails particularly hard (loses middle point), it becomes a 2v2 bottom, or I flat out fail against their bottom laner (thus they carried their team).
In fact this is my point! It doesnt matter how much you own your bottom opponent if their team wins jungle fights strong enough to take their mid or simple as to allow constant ganks bottom, or even do it 2v2 or 3v3. or what they want. I dont think bottom has that much more impact to the game than the rest except early on.
Bottom is more important early on as windmill fight occurs and you are 1v1 vs 4v4, there I agree But after windmill fight, I don't think bottom player adds more than anything else.

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Lets assume that at least 3 of the enemy team is camped out by your speedshrine for a second here. If a tank facechecks the jungle alone, will he live?
The question is not that relevant. The question is, if im 3, and i suspect 2 or even 3 guys camping in a brush, a tank can give me the ability to facecheck and do well. If I have no tank, I have to resign to give that point to them, even sometimes 3v2, that is really sad. A tank also provides the ability to tower dive with minimal loses. I think a tank or at least a bruiser is essential in dominion. In fact I prefer to have 2, but without one I think a team is fated to lose.

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. A team with a tank, ranged DPS, good bottom laner, assassin and tanky DPS can still fail against a team full of tanky DPS with gap closers
I want to see that, I know I never lose against a team that doesnt have a good composition unless we lost someone to DC. Really when i see a bad composition I say to my team "we win" and it has been true always so far.



Quote:
Agreed. If you have some pointers on its use, then I'm all ears. I haven't seen a single player take it in well over 100 games.
I think you need premade, When I play with my premade we play mostly in the jungle, and the ability to gain vision to take points was very good.
But somehow the nerf discouraged me to use it , and I never ever tried it after the nerf, but i guess it can't be that much worse (or is it)


Quote:
Thanks for the feedback . Again, this guide is pretty much entirely written by me with the help and suggestions of other forum goers. My style isn't going to change, and there will be a little bit of bias here and there, but that won't change the fact that it will still help new players get their Dominion shoes on.[
Sure I really appreciate the guide and already linked it to friends that are just learning to play dominion.


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Nekrogen

Senior Member

12-04-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lameador View Post
I never say it wasn't important, I say is not THAT important. And I dont think you proved much more than what I think it is. and your following comments help my point

In fact this is my point! It doesnt matter how much you own your bottom opponent if their team wins jungle fights strong enough to take their mid or simple as to allow constant ganks bottom, or even do it 2v2 or 3v3. or what they want. I dont think bottom has that much more impact to the game than the rest except early on.
Bottom is more important early on as windmill fight occurs and you are 1v1 vs 4v4, there I agree But after windmill fight, I don't think bottom player adds more than anything else.
Indeed but this importance is weighted onto a SINGLE person, meaning that this 1 person alone has to carry half of the map alone for a significant portion of time. I have around 4 smurfs, and pretty much every game I played on them consisted of just a perpetual 1v1 bottom with me wrecking their bottom laner until 2-3 come to retake their point. People assume that their bottom laner can "handle it", and that is basically the mentality of low-mid elo solo queue right now. I can literally just play the whole tutorial on a smurf, buy Ryze, and roll bottom lane and not even worry about what top is doing because I know they won't do anything about it. Again, this is a guide for new players, not experienced ones.

At more experience levels of play, you are completely right. I cannot win every game by dominating bottom lane because Fdru will come down and gank 10 times a game making my life miserable :P (this is just an example, but it actually happens every time I face him). The key at higher elo is to have a fast reacting top lane to assist bottom lane if it gets hammered like that, or the team suffers a lost bottom point (which is incredibly detrimental to the team). It also helps to have a bottom laner that is exceptionally good at reacting to ganks, i.e. the reason I took up Gragas and Jarvan.

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The question is not that relevant. The question is, if im 3, and i suspect 2 or even 3 guys camping in a brush, a tank can give me the ability to facecheck and do well. If I have no tank, I have to resign to give that point to them, even sometimes 3v2, that is really sad. A tank also provides the ability to tower dive with minimal loses. I think a tank or at least a bruiser is essential in dominion. In fact I prefer to have 2, but without one I think a team is fated to lose.
That's definitely dependent on who you run into and who is on their team in general. Also, the fastest person to run top at lvl 3 should also have at least 8-9 bars of HP otherwise you're right, they will get wrecked by that speedy blitz or shaco. I was more or less referring to post windmill fight and a tank facechecks 3 enemy players alone.

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I want to see that, I know I never lose against a team that doesnt have a good composition unless we lost someone to DC. Really when i see a bad composition I say to my team "we win" and it has been true always so far.
I've seen a team full of assassins wreck a perfect teamcomp on many occasions. It really isn't so much about the comp as it is your team's perks vs. theirs, how skilled are the players with those champs, who engaged and how, was there enough poking involved, etc.
Again, I'm not an expert when it comes to top lane, but I've been on countless wacky teams that wreck face top lane when the enemy has a tank, ranged DPS, assassin, and so on. Like I said, this guide is mostly for solo queue because new players that team up with other experienced players will probably learn from them.

It is currently extremely difficult to force a "perfect" teamcomp in solo queue Dominion (imagine at lower elos). Maybe in a couple of months people will figure things out and something will develop.

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I think you need premade, When I play with my premade we play mostly in the jungle, and the ability to gain vision to take points was very good.
But somehow the nerf discouraged me to use it , and I never ever tried it after the nerf, but i guess it can't be that much worse (or is it)
Even my premades don't run it; I can't imagine it in solo queue. I can see the usefulness of it top lane in the jungle, but like I said I haven't seen CV in weeks. Even before the nerf it was scarce.

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Sure I really appreciate the guide and already linked it to friends that are just learning to play dominion.
NP , that's what I made it for.


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ricklessabandon

qa analyst

12-04-2011
3 of 6 Riot Posts

to lameador's points about facechecking and cv:
hextech sweeper

that item is really good, and kills that i get specifically because of the passive or active are very satisfying. i think teams should have at least one champion pick for sweeper duty--it's one of the reasons i can't stop picking ezreal if i'm not bot.


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Gentleman Oz

Senior Member

12-04-2011

ricklessabandon posting in a dominion-related thread... nothing impressive here XD

I'm not saying you are wrong, Hextech Sweeper is a great item for the paranoid AP player who wants (more) map awareness and such, so 1s The Lightbringer for physical champions.

This, Oracle's extract and the neutral/allied point magical vision makes stealth more of a matter of skill in dominion than in SR, just my two-cents however


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Medusa

Senior Member

12-04-2011

Why dont you like Cass on Dom, or you just haven't seen enough, if any to judge well?


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Nekrogen

Senior Member

12-04-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
Why dont you like Cass on Dom, or you just haven't seen enough, if any to judge well?
Who said they don't like Cass in Dominion? o.O

I've been meaning to learn to play Cassiopeia bottom lane, but I've been too addicted to Gragas bottom lol. Just because I don't mention them in the bans section, doesn't mean they aren't good ^_^

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricklessabandon View Post
to lameador's points about facechecking and cv:
hextech sweeper

that item is really good, and kills that i get specifically because of the passive or active are very satisfying. i think teams should have at least one champion pick for sweeper duty--it's one of the reasons i can't stop picking ezreal if i'm not bot.
Thank you . Yeah I see teams without tanks win all the time, but I rarely see a team without a tanky DPS (or Hextech Sweeper) win games.


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Gentleman Oz

Senior Member

12-04-2011

Dude a good Cass is godlike on dominion

Two area skillshots with Dot, a short cooldown projectile that almost makes her an assassin, a large cone-shaped nuke with stun, mana-saving passive, speed boost when landing Q...

Sure she is squishy, but it's like Kog, once she gains momentum it's face-wrecking time


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Medusa

Senior Member

12-04-2011

Oh, i know she is good, i would highly suggest it.

atm i like Blasting Wand+boots to start.

I like 2 in NB and 1 in Miasma to start, casting them on the first 3 minions to get things pushed. Seems to be working well.


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ricklessabandon

qa analyst

12-04-2011
4 of 6 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
atm i like Blasting Wand+boots to start.
i have a hard time justifying anything other than catalyst + health pot if i'm going bot. most bot champs are built for attrition, so i feel that catalyst is a 'must have' item. i guess it depends on the champ, but it seems way too good to pass on.