Jungling RIP

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Ninjoey

Junior Member

11-30-2011

I don't see how the jungle could possibly be better.

Less experience plus less gold equals... better?


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Spiky Turtle

Junior Member

11-30-2011

It's better because the mobs level up, so as you go higher, they are worth more experience and more gold in the long run, they just start lower.

It's better because it opens up more dynamic routes and a more dynamic game, where counter-jungle is a stagger tactic that is easier to accomplish now.

It's better because it opened up more viable junglers to an easier time, along with making it more newbie accessible -- you can now validly jungle pantheon, who is a great ganker with his WQE combo.

It's better because you can share camps with teammates more easily if they need just a little gold to finish an item, without it making a huge impact on your route so long as they clear the camp.

It's better because now it is like Anivia -- easy to play, hard to master, and the good junglers will understand this and adapt, instead of just crying "boohoo, im level 3 instead of level 4!"

I just did a 1/6/12 Udyr game, Jungle -- not my best, and I fell behind a little late game. Not because of bad jungle, but because I was eating the enemy alpha strikes to set up for my team to get aces/near aces and push.

We ended up with huge advantage, by counter jungling enemy (Udyr vs Volibear), and via Dragon control.

The same as before holds true -- a Jungler, like a tank, is only as good as his team. And the new jungle promotes more aggressive team tactics.


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Ninjoey

Junior Member

11-30-2011

The mobs level up through time, but the increments don't seem quick enough. As a jungler you still remain underleveled in comparison to what it was before. In the "long run" you don't jungle. You snag blue, red, dragon, etc., then push towers. Mid to late game you group up, you don't jungle, so the "long run" serves no real purpose.

Dynamic routes makes sense, but again, with the low gold and experience you get from the jungle, that's not really a positive thing. It's just a fact that you can take very different routes from before. Though, even with that being true, again, you're underleveled and lacking in gold in comparison to what it was before, so it defeats the purpose of the jungle being more dynamic.

The jungle is easier to deal with so now many champions can jungle, however if GOOD jungling champions are underleveled, I can't even imagine "okay" junglers doing that well. Maybe jungling to get the big buffs and roaming to gank, but this is more so and emphasis on the idea of a roamer, not the jungle itself. And, AGAIN, I cannot stress this enough, an underleveled Pantheon (for example) ganking can only do so much against a team that knows how to not overextend.

Sharing camps with teammates doesn't really mean much since the gold you get is so miniscule, but if it doesn't ruin your route since the respawn is so fast, there's no real downside. I can agree with your basis there.

It's not so much QQ-ing off the idea of being underleveled slightly. The jungle gives SIGNIFICANTLY less experience than it did before. Ganking is only viable when you're strong enough. Whether that means in levels, items, or getting red, or a combination of these, it's still much harder than it was before, which is ironic because Riot's whole purpose of the jungle remake was to make things easier, but in making the jungle easier to take out, they inadvertently (or intentionally) made ganking much harder.

Also, counter jungling is fine, but since the camps respawn so fast, for the same reason you can have a teammate take a camp or two, you can have an enemy take a camp or two and it doesn't really affect you other then them stealing a blue or red.

I know the new jungle is, well... new, and I was actually looking forward to the update, but they messed with something fundamental about the game to a degree where it's almost not worth it to jungle anymore. I guess I can deal with less gold, but the decrease in experience gained in the jungle is so bad that you might as well duo top and share CS, snagging blue/red when you can.

I'm still open to the new jungle and I'm still testing new things, but so far I feel the change is for the worse. In the upcoming weeks with the updates we'll probably see an increase in gold and experienced gained from camps. If not, well... I guess I'll just eat my words.

It's Riot's world after all. We're just living in it.


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Acena

Senior Member

11-30-2011

Idk what people are talking about I still made it to level 6 by 7 minutes in o.o


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Ninjoey

Junior Member

11-30-2011

Who are you using and what route are you taking? How many times did you have to recall, if at all?


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Spiky Turtle

Junior Member

11-30-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjoey View Post
The mobs level up through time, but the increments don't seem quick enough. As a jungler you still remain underleveled in comparison to what it was before. In the "long run" you don't jungle. You snag blue, red, dragon, etc., then push towers. Mid to late game you group up, you don't jungle, so the "long run" serves no real purpose.
I've yet to experience this issue, given this is only counting 10 games, 5 of which I was jungler, 5 where I wasn't. Anytime you walk through the jungle, if you have the time and aren't running to a fight, you clear a camp -- it's only a bit of gold and exp, but every little bit helps. It was true before, and it's just as true now. As a jungler, mid to late game you are still clearing those camps when given the chance, along with the XP from lane pushes and teamfights, so it balances out just fine.

Who are you using and what route are you taking? How many times did you have to recall, if at all?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjoey View Post
Dynamic routes makes sense, but again, with the low gold and experience you get from the jungle, that's not really a positive thing. It's just a fact that you can take very different routes from before. Though, even with that being true, again, you're underleveled and lacking in gold in comparison to what it was before, so it defeats the purpose of the jungle being more dynamic.
And again you point to being underleveled and lacking gold -- the faster respawn timer on the wraiths and wolves mean there is virtually no wait to clear a camp. Smite you can take for Dragon/Baron control, faster clearing while being a jungler, or disrupting the enemy via counter jungling, whichever suits your purpose best. My game as Udyr, I actually wasn't really using smite much at all, forgot to use it until I got to red on first clear, so not seeing any problem, in terms of gold, level, or speed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjoey View Post
The jungle is easier to deal with so now many champions can jungle, however if GOOD jungling champions are underleveled, I can't even imagine "okay" junglers doing that well. Maybe jungling to get the big buffs and roaming to gank, but this is more so and emphasis on the idea of a roamer, not the jungle itself. And, AGAIN, I cannot stress this enough, an underleveled Pantheon (for example) ganking can only do so much against a team that knows how to not overextend.
Good jungling champions vs okay jungling champions vs good jungling PLAYERS. I said this before, and I'll reiterate it now -- the new jungle is easy to play, and hard to master for efficiency. I literally just did a game where I jungled, ran a gank on mid (failed) ran one on bottom (zoned out the champs, but no kills) and went right back to my freshly respawned jungle while bot continued to push. all 3 of us (both bots and myself) maintained same level, even with 2 failed gank attempts, and I had somewhere else to go instead of having to wait for respawns with my thumb up my arse.

Now your point about being underleveled champions only being able to do so much is fine -- that was just as true in the old jungle as the new, and since a good player can keep the levels up with the new jungle, this is a non-issue. Add to that, an underleveled player with a good team comp and good teammates can still do a lot, if they position and coordinate. And versus a team that knows how to not overextend, the old jungle essentially screwed the jungler hard, because you had to wait. Now, if you don't have a gank opportunity or your team is dominating their lane/pushing to tower too hard for you to gank....you go back to jungling with no loss.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjoey View Post
It's not so much QQ-ing off the idea of being underleveled slightly. The jungle gives SIGNIFICANTLY less experience than it did before. Ganking is only viable when you're strong enough. Whether that means in levels, items, or getting red, or a combination of these, it's still much harder than it was before, which is ironic because Riot's whole purpose of the jungle remake was to make things easier, but in making the jungle easier to take out, they inadvertently (or intentionally) made ganking much harder.
Except it's not harder. This is a question of player skill, both the individual (jungler) and the team (lanes). It gives similar exp and gold, in the same or slightly longer time frame, than before, if you optimize your routes and builds and aren't afraid to experiment. But again your teams follow up on a gank attempt is important.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjoey View Post
Also, counter jungling is fine, but since the camps respawn so fast, for the same reason you can have a teammate take a camp or two, you can have an enemy take a camp or two and it doesn't really affect you other then them stealing a blue or red.
And this is a basic fallacy. Effective counter jungling does not mean clearing the whole camp. That's just farming at that point. An effective counter jungle you run in, clear the highest value mob (Large Wolf, Large Wraith, Blue, Red, and now Large mini golem), and a bit more, leaving 1 mob. This diminishes the enemy junglers xp and gold gain, and skews the spawn timers, while putting you at the advantage of the extra gold and xp they are losing out, and if you are fast enough with it, getting back to your jungle to full clear again, attempting a gank, or even finding the enemy jungler with his pants down for a kill.

I don't know how much you jungled before this change, or what junglers you use. So far I've had success as Alistar, Nocturne, Pantheon, and Udyr. I had a horrible fail as Rammus, but reiterating once more--that was because of my teams lack of follow-up. My jungling as Rammus was a success, being level 5 while enemy jungler was level 4, getting a kill on him because of a counter jungle run, but the gank attempts all went sour.

Try it more, feel free to contact me to ask questions or discuss, but the jungle is not nerfed. It just takes more skill now to utilize it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjoey View Post
Who are you using and what route are you taking? How many times did you have to recall, if at all?
Who was above, still going to try others out to see how it goes. As far as recall times, other than to buy or because I stayed out way too long, 1-2 times is about normal.


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Spiky Turtle

Junior Member

11-30-2011

I just need to throw this out there also:
Neutral monsters now have their health, damage, experience reward, and gold reward increase with game length, instead of having health increases with each respawn

In one game, with this new system, just the large wolf was worth 73g. Not the wolves, just the large. That's a pretty hefty amount for a single mob, especially when baron is now only worth 200g when you first kill him.


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Ninjoey

Junior Member

11-30-2011

I've been using Nocturne primarily, but I feel I need to try a game with Rammus or Udyr. Tried Volibear a bit, but I haven't really gotten to actually liking him as a champ.

When I jungled before the patch, I was usually a higher level than my two bottom lane teammates. I was somewhere in between top and bottom as far as experience goes. Maybe I need to switch up runes and masteries or even champions all together to get a better feel for this new jungle. Like I said, this is just my initial feel on the jungle, but if even some people are doing fine, then I guess I just need to reevaluate.


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sXeph

Junior Member

11-30-2011

Messed around with jungling to see how fast I can hit 6 (hitting 4 takes about 20 seconds longer compared to before) with Rammus, Udyr, Noct, Shyv, and Amumu.
http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/4417/loljungle6.jpg
http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/9075/loljungle6a.jpg
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/9481/loljungle6b.jpg
http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/2259/loljungle6c.jpg (Don't have Shyv myself so I used another account)
http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/6992/loljungle6d.jpg
It's all at 7 the minute mark or so... Of course, this is without ganking/counter-jungling so how much exp you've gained can be higher/lower. With the change in jungling, you can pretty much cycle wolves > wraiths > mini golems > recall and repeat without waiting for camps to spawn. Though I'd say jungling got a slight nerf since you have to spend a little more time in it to get the same value as before, but this only applies for the beginning. But in general, jungling seems okay for me and I don't mind the change at all.

As for lower levels, I never tried... but it seems like it's easier and they accomplished that goal of allowing non 30s to jungle better.


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Ninjoey

Junior Member

11-30-2011

But if you're non stop jungling and only ganking at level six when it's seven minutes in the game... you're not the best jungler. This is of course working off the premise that you don't get counter jungled, which might happen and mess up your time even more.