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TEH - Total Effective Health, or; a guide on how to build a tank properly.

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VaiSeig

Senior Member

11-28-2011

so basically... the cake is a lie :|


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Keemselykeem

Member

11-28-2011

amazing guide


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Ursalgodon

Senior Member

11-28-2011

It's not accurate to say resistances have diminishing returns. Every point of armor purchased increases EHP by flat amount, based on health.

But it is true that the opportunity cost increases for every point of armor you have. At some point, a fixed amount of gold will increase your EHP by more if you buy health instead of resistances.

The marginal benefit is static. The marginal cost increases. You keep buying resistances until the marginal benefit is equal to the marginal cost. I think we can all agree on that.


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Reiver

Senior Member

11-28-2011

It comes down to an argument of whether we're talking about % additional damage reduction or if we're talking about how much more punishment you can take period.

% additional damage reduction is diminishing

Additional punishment taken is a constant

If a chain vest allows you to take 3 more hits before you die, 2 chain vests will allow 6 more hits and 9 chain vests will allow 9 more hits.

I find % damage reduction a fairly worthless thing to measure by and "how much more punishment I can take" a far more worthwhile statistic


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Karathrow

Senior Member

11-28-2011

EH models are useless in practical gameplay and don't factor for things like "while you may have a certain EH against AD champions if they have 3 ap carries on their team and the AD champ focuses someone else", your EH is meaningless.

Furthermore instances of true damage skew this model like chogath irelia, ignite, etc.

Additionally unlike games like WoW where a lot of decisions are made purely on a stat basis (enchantments, gems, runes, etc.) you only have so many item slots and you need to make sacrifices for utility in many cases (i.e. boots, rylai's slow, mana regen, cdr, move speed items, etc)

These kinds of utility buffs are less tangible and EH does not factor for them. Now if you'll excuse me I must hide behind my flame shield while the crazies in this thread prepare to devour me with rage.


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Stimraug

Senior Member

11-28-2011

Quote:
H911Reiver:
It comes down to an argument of whether we're talking about % additional damage reduction or if we're talking about how much more punishment you can take period.


Yeah so you're playing this game in which you want to survive as long as possible. Will you look at the guy who tells you how much punishment you can take or the guy who draws a curved line on a board and tells you to stop buying more B. F. Swords cos they get weaker the more you buy them?


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Karathrow

Senior Member

11-28-2011

Quote:
H911Reiver:
It comes down to an argument of whether we're talking about % additional damage reduction or if we're talking about how much more punishment you can take period.

% additional damage reduction is diminishing

Additional punishment taken is a constant

If a chain vest allows you to take 3 more hits before you die, 2 chain vests will allow 6 more hits and 9 chain vests will allow 9 more hits.

I find % damage reduction a fairly worthless thing to measure by and "how much more punishment I can take" a far more worthwhile statistic


the thing is you never really know for sure the chain vest is going to guarantee 3 more hits. It may guarantee 3 more physical hits, but then you might get focused by the ap carry or cho gath might eat you or you might get ignited for your last hit.

The only thing that truly guarantees extra hits against all types of damage is health. I really feel like it's dishonest to not distinguish that using armor or MR alone only determines your EH for that type of damage, and even if you include both EH is useless against true damage.


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Narcindin

Senior Member

11-28-2011

Quote:
ricklessabandon:


in this example, our first purchase option looks like:
10 health = 10 ehp
1 armor = 20 ehp
1 armor = 2 cookies

cool, so given a choice between 1 cookie or 2 cookies for the same price, we want 2 cookies so we'll purchase armor.
since armor isn't supposed to have diminishing returns according to the 'ehp' model, we'll make this decision 99 times more.

let's look at our 101st purchase option with 2000 health and 100 armor:
10 health = 20 ehp
1 armor = 20 ehp
1 armor = 1 cookie

so, um, weird. it looks like purchasing armor would be half as effective as it was before... that doesn't make any sense if we're using 'ehp' but we'll pick armor again since it doesn't have any diminishing returns in that model.



I don't want to get into a semantic argument here (too late for other s0_0) but I think the best way to think about it is that armor is more beneficial the more health you have and vice versa. They are multiplicative stats.

The reason you want to get health first is two-fold. One your first item should protect you against both types of dmg. Later you can itemize against enemy champions who are doing well. Second: Basically your starting armor is higher relative to your starting mr. So you get more health to bring it on par with your armor.

For example if you have 50% dmg redux from armor each point of health is worth twice as much. As you get more armor each point of health is worth even more. ARMOR MAKES HEALTH MORE VALUABLE.

This is why I object to the usage of the term diminishing returns. It is relative diminishing returns.


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Karathrow

Senior Member

11-28-2011

Also I apologize since I haven't really looked through the thread a ton but one advantage to having a lot of resists is heals from your support and regen/lifesteal/vamp effects are much stronger on you as well since they are effectively the same as health.


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Reiver

Senior Member

11-28-2011

Quote:
Karathrow:
the thing is you never really know for sure the chain vest is going to guarantee 3 more hits. It may guarantee 3 more physical hits, but then you might get focused by the ap carry or cho gath might eat you or you might get ignited for your last hit.

The only thing that truly guarantees extra hits against all types of damage is health. I really feel like it's dishonest to not distinguish that using armor or MR alone only determines your EH for that type of damage, and even if you include both EH is useless against true damage.


EHP vs True = HP

EHP vs Magic = HP * (1+MR/100)
EHP vs Physical = HP* (1+Armor/100)

When I'm building up my tankiness I factor how much of each type of damage the opponents have, how they tend to distribute it when they're fighting, and what I already have to determine what to buy.

That being said, your argument has nothing to do with the discussion I was discussing which is the validity of EHP and whether or not armor and MR have diminishing returns.

You're attempting to refute my claims by talking about something completely different from what I'm discussing, and your argument is just as much an "opposition" to the very point I'm going against (And a weak one at that)