TEH - Total Effective Health, or; a guide on how to build a tank properly.

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Afraa

Senior Member

11-28-2011

chogath irelea vayne and olaf would like to have a word with everyone who thinks armor is more important than health as well

all of them are very popular right now and if you don't build some health in it doesn't matter what your math says about armor their true damage will rip you appart before your armor has time to matter


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Ayestes

Senior Member

11-28-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorifel View Post
So...
0 to 100 Armor gave me 4 seconds to live
100 to 200 Armor gave me 4 seconds more to live

I can't say I see the deminishing returns here. Or do you want to say that 4 is more % from 8 than from 12? Yep, that's right. But it doesn't matter to me.

What does matter to me is that I've got another 4 freaking seconds to last in a teamfight and do my job before being dead.

Of course HP becomes better with more mitigation, but that is out of the question of "diminishing returns on stacking armor" =)
You are assuming that DPS done to you is linearly increasing. That would be true if there was only AP and AD, without Attack Speed, % Armor Pen, Base Damages, Critical Strike, Deathcap, and a myriad of other factors. That's why it's easier to look at in terms of seconds to live so you can make the assumption that the opponent's damage is improving as your durability is improving.

Your "durability" only exponentially increases off of a Health and Armor combined. You can't just use Armor to give yourself 4 seconds when the carry is now doing 100% more damage (not a real number) then before because he picked up a Phantom Dancer to go with that Infinity Edge. That is why you need to focus on improving your durability by a % increase in order to keep up as best you can. Then again, you also have to look at everything else as well because Armor and Health aren't the only things that are defensive as well.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

chumbler

Senior Member

11-28-2011

Ricklessabandon, diminishing returns is not "Something else becomes more effective." It is "The more you have of something, the less effective getting more becomes." If armor had diminishing returns, the effective health granted by each point of armor would diminish as you obtained more armor. This does not happen, so armor does not have diminishing returns. People refer to effective health not because it is some arbitrary metric that makes them right, they refer to it because amount of damage that can be sustained before dying (i.e., effective health) is the only defensive stat that is relevant. It is also much easier to quickly assess.

If I can plant one ton of seed and get one ton of yield from that seed, but two tons of seed only gives one and a half tons of yield, then the seed has diminishing returns because additional seed produces less yield, which is the relevant metric. The second ton has yielded less than the first ton. That is diminishing returns. Armor does not work that way.

I am not in any way saying that health does not become more effective than armor at some point, but that is not the same as saying armor has diminishing returns.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Wofford

Senior Member

11-28-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko Hakoo View Post
No matter what your current armor is at, 1 additional armor is going to allow you to last 1% longer against physical damage.
This is correct the return is not diminished but what is absolutely important is the relation between health and resistance that's why health at the beginning is often more useful than resistance (but not if u heal a lot).

I find ricklessabandons post misleading esp for people who don't understand the effect of armor and magic resistance.

The easiest and best way to look at armor and magic resistance is as lifepoint increase.


Armor means: Extra life vs physical damage
Magic resistance means: Extra life vs magic damage


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Stimraug

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-28-2011

Disclaimer: you must understand that this subject is a hot one for me, please do not get too annoyed by what I've posted here, my intent is to benefit your knowledge of the game. Also, please bear with this wall of text. Most of it is quotes which you may have already read. Let my rant and comments begin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricklessabandon View Post
resistances do work on diminishing returns. whenever you gain another point of armor, each point of armor is worth less damage reduction. this is why each point of penetration gives a larger damage increase as you penetrate closer to zero.

if resistances didn't have diminishing returns, every 'ehp' guide ever would say 'always buy mitigation because diminishing returns don't exist.' it's very silly to see people write 'armor doesn't have diminishing returns, but you should stop buying it at this point and buy health instead because the armor becomes less valuable.'
The reason people tell you to buy mitigation and health at different times has been discussed before, please *read*. The gain in EHP when you buy resists or HP is affected by your current HP and resistances, hence it varies when buying resists or HP is optimal.

As has been said before, playing with the *percentages* makes you go down the wrong path. *Of course* the more armor you buy, the less dmg reduction %s you get, else you'd get to 100% dmg reduction quite fast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Riolu View Post
What I think he's trying to say with regards to EHP is that every point of armor/mr gives the same amount of EHP. While every successive point of armor gives less of a % increase, it gives the same flat increase.
Exactly, well done Riolu. I have linked the post before where I've gone through these same things, but I'll repeat myself again... EHP is what keeps you alive. Every point of additional resistance gives you the same flat bonus EHP. Do *NOT* every single time confuse yourself and others by reciting the same verse about the dmg reduction %-gain getting lower, the increase in survivability is still constant and linear!

Morello made a mistake. Please do not confuse even more people with your red posts here, I'm tired of thinking the same thing over again and repeating myself to people who see a single mathematical relation and think they know it all right away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trion Porra View Post
Each point increased in the % is worth the same in terms of EH, not each point increased in Armor/MR itself.
Can you see those downvotes you have got? There's a reason for it. *EVERY* point in *RESISTANCES* is worth the same in terms of EHP, not the percentage, as you said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricklessabandon View Post
i understand the common argument. the problem with it is that it's like saying that i'm going to convert 'mitigation' into 'kittens' and that there are no diminishing returns for that conversion. the oversight is that it doesn't matter that there aren't diminishing returns in that isolated kitten vacuum because once you start reintroduce 'kittens' to all the other factors that mitigation was involved with, 'kittens' would then have diminishing returns again.
Every point of added resistance gives you a flat bonus amount of kittens. The more there are kittens, the longer you survive. The amount of added kittens per added resistance is constant, hence there are no diminishing returns. When you reintroduce kittens to all the other factors, you still have no diminishing returns. There is just the same remnant of a fool's thought; that the constant amount of kittens added is always a smaller % of the total amount of kittens. *This*, however does not indicate diminishing returns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by H911Reiver View Post
rick I disagree

Each point of armor increases your EHP by the exact same amount, by your argument AD has diminishing returns too.
This is the *exact* same thing I've said in my linked post. People still go on and on about diminshing returns simply cos they can't read or think enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricklessabandon View Post
it's a wording thing. it's silly.

even within an 'ehp' system there are diminishing returns if you do all of the math, which is why health and mitigation take turns being more valuable.

we can even use a common example:
-a champion has 2000 health, and 0 armor.
-for the sake of math, we'll say that 10 health and 1 armor have the exact same gold cost.
-since we're examining the potential of diminishing returns on armor, we'll use the '10 health' purchase as a basis of comparison for effectiveness. we'll call the effectiveness gained from purchasing 10 health '1 cookie'.

*ETC. ETC. ETC. useless examples*
I CRY ABUSE! For the sake of professionalism, why do you keep confusing people even further? You're a RED poster! Think more, please!
>>You are confusing the maths behind EHP with maths behind the optimization of your use of gold between resistances and HP. I have gone through all this in the aforementioned post, please *READ*! I repeat: you buy armor and HP at different times because they give different benefits when you have different amounts of HP and resistances already. All this is covered in my earlier response post's link!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joru View Post
Measuring mitigation gained with each successive point of armor in percentage points isn't much less meaningless than measuring it in kittens, because "percentage points" are not a consistent, linear unit of measurement. You're reading the whole situation completely wrong.

If my base damage is 100, and I spend 1650 gold on a B.F. Sword, my damage increases to 145. That's a 45% increase. If I then spend another 1650 gold on a second B.F. Sword, my damage increases from 145 to 190, which is a 31% increase. Attack damage doesn't have diminishing returns; each additional sword provides the same 45 damage: a linear benefit. It's just that you're converting the gain into percentage points, which are not linear units.
Suddenly there are lots of people who understand this! Yay for you! Again, this is the same thing I said in the post, which proves that Morello's statement was wrong in the patch preview, but which he never wanted to correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guhnosis View Post
I think maybe a better argument for armor falling off is this:

Say a champ has 2000 HP and 0 armor. They buy an item that gives them 100 armor. Their effective HP is now doubled, giving them 4000 Hp against physical damage.

So say they buy another 100 armor. They gain the same flat 2000 EHP, bringing them up to 6000; but that's now a 150% increase in EHP, as opposed to doubling it.

And then they buy another 100 armor. Another flat 2000 EHP, they're up to 8000, but it's only a 133% increase in EHP. And so on.

As you buy armor, you get the same flat amount of EHP, but the relative chunk that your increasing your TEH by diminishes. 2000 extra HP at 10000 effective health is not as compelling as 2000 extra HP at 2000 effective health. Thus armor is 'better' at lower values as it makes a more noticeable impact on your TEH.
Exactly, as I said before, if you use the same flawed logic behind "diminishing returns", you'll end up with diminishing returns in every single stat. have 1.00 AS? buy 0.5 more, then you'll have 1.5 AS, that's 50% more! Buy +0.5 AS? Now you have 2.00 AS, but that's only a 33% increase! Eek it's the diminishing returns-monster!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamyDays View Post
I had a long wall of text here about how armor and HP doesn't give diminishing returns....
Yeah I have it right here. I apologize to everyone who had the patience to read through this, but this thing must be settled once and for all, and I cannot stress it enough!

Quote:
Originally Posted by chumbler View Post
Ricklessabandon, diminishing returns is not "Something else becomes more effective." It is "The more you have of something, the less effective getting more becomes."

If I can plant one ton of seed and get one ton of yield from that seed, but two tons of seed only gives one and a half tons of yield, then the seed has diminishing returns because additional seed produces less yield, which is the relevant metric. The second ton has yielded less than the first ton. That is diminishing returns. Armor does not work that way.
As I have said in my posts for the last month! I sincerely hope the reds realize they're wrong, and stop balancing champions based on flawed logic.

EDIT: Also. please refrain from upvoting reds just because of their color. If their facts are wrong, downvote to set things straight.
EDIT2: I just re-read the thread... It's kind of sad how ricklessa tries to appear media-sexy by using the words "kitten" and "cookie". Don't they give PR-training there at Riot's?

TL;DR: It is not too long to read. Take your time.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Wofford

Senior Member

11-28-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Afraa View Post
chogath irelea vayne and olaf would like to have a word with everyone who thinks armor is more important than health as well

all of them are very popular right now and if you don't build some health in it doesn't matter what your math says about armor their true damage will rip you appart before your armor has time to matter
that's absolutely true but say hello to WW who takes 20% of your health off in one blow


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

DreamyDays

Senior Member

11-28-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Afraa View Post
chogath irelea vayne and olaf would like to have a word with everyone who thinks armor is more important than health as well

all of them are very popular right now and if you don't build some health in it doesn't matter what your math says about armor their true damage will rip you appart before your armor has time to matter
True damage is a completely different matter :P
For that matter, there are champs and items that deal damage based on the target's HP.

That's why you need to consider the whole situation before getting that piece of item.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Warrition

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Adjudicator

11-28-2011

It truly is just a matter of perspective: armor benefits both diminish and do not diminish, depending on what you're measuring. I think the "armor benefits do not diminish" side is pretty well understood. I'd like to add something to rickless' side, to hopefully help people understand that perspective better. Keep in mind that the logic rickless is using applies to other stats too, such as attack damage and attack speed.

With that in mind, let's consider a very extreme example:
Scenario 1: a carry with 10 damage purchases another 10 damage.
Scenario 2: a carry with 1 million damage purchases another 10 damage.

Both scenarios have the same flat increase, and that increase has not diminished numerically. However, in the first scenario, the carry will now kill things twice as fast. It's a monstrous upgrade that has doubled his/her damage. In the second scenario, the damage increase is literally meaningless, and will not contribute to the carry's performance in any reasonably measurable way. In this example it's easy to see that the value of the damage purchase vastly different in the two scenarios, despite being the same flat numerical value.

Although this is clearly a ridiculous example in the world of LoL, the trend applies for more realistic numbers. When considered from this perspective attack damage returns do in fact diminish, and armor works the same way.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Stimraug

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-28-2011

Warrition, diversity in perspectives in general is a positive thing, but are we not talking about the one and only perspective of increasing our survivability here? Your example has been given many times already, in the light of showing that the logic behind diminishing returns is flawed; if it was not, then AD, AS and every stat Tryndamere ever came up with had diminishing returns!

What I'd like to point out is that the perspective rickless is giving here, and which you are "supporting", is not a perspective from a realistic/meaningful viewpoint.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

chumbler

Senior Member

11-28-2011

After checking the actual definition of diminishing returns (it has been a while since I've had an economics class), it apparently refers specifically to diminishing marginal returns, in which case yes, it is true that armor/MR (and health) have diminishing (marginal) returns, simply because they do not scale exponentially. However the real returns of armor/MR (and health) do not diminish and depend only on the other stat (by which I mean the real return of armor/MR depends only on health, and the real return of health depends only on armor/MR.) There are no artificial diminishing return mechanics imposed on armor/MR and health, unlike move speed, for example.

In conclusion, diminishing marginal returns: Yes. Diminishing real returns: No. The real returns are the more important one and the easier one to evaluate and compare. Armor/MR and health are an economy of scale, but they have natural diminishing marginal returns as a result of not scaling exponentially.