Volibear patch discussion: Jungling and laning dynamics

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Shiroi Kage

Member

11-26-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerdsinc View Post
IMO, this only buffs roamers up. What about those people that spent months investing into runes so they could jungle efficiently? Now, we have level one's that can finish the jungle completely.

Nerfing the minions? Unless it's a super minion, stupid move IMO. Minions will be close to useless. Isn't the point of laning to farm? So, if you get wrecked by minions, then you're either: Too aggressive, or just plain unlucky.
Yes, this does buff roamers. Optimized junglers, however, will have an advantage in that the will be able to go for quicker rounds and thus quicker farming from the jungle. I do not see how this will be disadvantageous to whoever had their runes built for jungling; they will be able to spend more time in the jungle and do it more quickly when others will be slower and less effective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphisto View Post
The funny thing about weakening minions is this: Riot buffed minions not too long ago because the weak minions meant that people stayed under their towers until late mid game to free farm or nobody pushed the lanes. They increased minion damage to stop the "passive play" that was going on. Now they are nerfing the minions in order to stop the "passive play." Obviously, the passive play doesn't have a hell of a lot to do with minions and much to do with current thought processes on the game. How about making farming less important than champion kills? That's really the only way to fix passive game play.

You will still need gank like surprises to take someone down...but it will have to be under the opponent's tower. I have no idea why Riot is reversing its previous changes when it changed nothing at all except for the damage done by minions.

I don't understand your understanding of short range champs being able to harass more easily. If you are playing as Nasus against Pantheon you will hardly ever get a hit on Panth while Panth harasses the living hell out of you. Take Irelia vs. anyone. Irelia can run in, slap somebody, and get out of there quicker than the other person can probably attack, especially if Irelia slaps and then stuns you.

If you are talking about taking less damage from minions not much will change. Now that minions do less damage most people will be over aggressive to start, get killed, and then go back to being passive and farming under the tower. I think of like this: If I can use a long range skill (Panth's or GP's Q) to harass you and take little to no damage from minions, why would I tank the minion damage in order to kill you outright? After you die I still lose out on xp and gold because I have to go to base to heal anyway. It's much safer and smarter to harass you and get last hits without taking damage. You are low on health, and perhaps out of xp range, so I can control the lane (whether it pushes, stays in the middle, or gets closer to my tower) and therefore I don't have to worry about ganks.
I think that the main reason minions were buffed to reduce passivity was that you could gain tons of HP from potions in early game. Increased minion damage was to press the potion advantage but ended up making tons of problems to those wanting to sustain an aggressive harassment as that would have made them get as much damage as they dealt in early game without the enemy trying to return fire, minions did it all for you.

Also, you are pointing certain melee champions that have certain advantages over other melee champions in the harassment department, that's what they're built for. While Nasus might have problems, Jarven will ave a better time for example. I often see J4 players try to harass over the early game farming and end up tanking much damage from caster minions. Similar things can be said to ranged champions on the shorter side of the range spectrum. An ability used or an auto attack landed in early game usually means an all-out aggression from minions that could cost up to 100 HP for anything done (a lot more if you were a melee trying to harass), that's a lot of damage taken from minions alone without returning fire from the enemy.


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Metaphisto

Senior Member

11-27-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiroi Kage View Post
I think that the main reason minions were buffed to reduce passivity was that you could gain tons of HP from potions in early game.
This could have been a reason, however, the reason stated by riot (as I remember it) was so that the lanes would push and a player would not be required to be in the lane for a tower to be destroyed. The thoughts of towers at the time were that they were too powerful and a great safety net, so increasing the damage received by minions would force players to push and fight. This did not work out as well as Riot thought.

Quote:
Also, you are pointing certain melee champions that have certain advantages over other melee champions in the harassment department, that's what they're built for. While Nasus might have problems, Jarven will ave a better time for example. I often see J4 players try to harass over the early game farming and end up tanking much damage from caster minions.
The reason I chose those champions is because that is who you will be playing solo top. If you pick Nasus expect to be against a tanky dps with some sort of long rage attack because your opponent will win the lane. If you walk up and attack him you will be taking minion damage. All your opponent has to do is walk away from you, hope you follow him, and attack you with his long rage attack. At best you've already lost about twice as much health as he has and at worst you've lost about the same health.

The problem with Jarman is his only real harassment is his Q or E, and both are AoE. This means that he will push the lane and lose control over the lane if he tries to harass. While AoE skills are good for later on in the game during the laning phase you don't want to overuse them. If Jarman tries to auto attack his opponent he will lose lots of health whether the minion damage is nerfed or not.

At the moment a full minion wave does around 96 dps. Say that the damage is lowered to 50 dps. You are playing as Jarman against GP and you want to auto attack him. You walk towards him, he starts going back to his caster creeps, you follow and attack him. Now you have GP using q and auto attacking you with the minions doing 50 dps. You've just lost over 200 health in less than 1.5 seconds and GP probably hasn't even lost 100.

This is assuming that the meta will stay the same, however. It might turn out that AP is top, tanks are mid, 2 supports are bottom, and the carry hangs out in the jungle. Who knows?


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Aloretec

Senior Member

11-27-2011

Smite is carried for buff, dragon, and baron control. Someone with the current correct rune page doesn't need it to get through and the extra 10 gold isn't noticeable because you shouldn't be spamming it but holding on to it for buffs, baron, and dragon.

You should learn to jungle before you make statements of what's good or bad for it.

I support the changes because now I'm not forced to do nothing if my lanes are pushed and I'll always have creeps to kill. Also I may be able to jungle Alistar and Blitzcrank in ranked without receiving rage.

I will be waiting to pass judgement till I get notes. Remember everyone said supports were going to be useless after the nerfs. How'd that work out? The community jumps to conclusion to fast.


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Metaphisto

Senior Member

11-27-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by EraserxRain View Post
Smite is carried for buff, dragon, and baron control. Someone with the current correct rune page doesn't need it to get through and the extra 10 gold isn't noticeable because you shouldn't be spamming it but holding on to it for buffs, baron, and dragon.

You should learn to jungle before you make statements of what's good or bad for it.
You should take your own advice before making a comment like that. There are a few junglers who do not currently need smite, but for those that rely on starting at blue to be decent need smite (like Rammus before the mastery updates). If you get a super pull from your team then you don't, but if your team is smart enough to super pull they assume that you're smart enough to finish off blue without a super pull.

Being able to jungle with skarner, ww, and other easy junglers =/= you know how to jungle. It just means that you can jungle when your health never drops below 98%. Until you can jungle with TF or another weak champ assume that you can't jungle.

Smite's CD is also low enough to spam if you have buffs warded. Why? Most of early game is about farming, so if neither team has an edge nobody wants to give up 300 gold or more and lose dragon. If the buffs are warded and your team gets to the buffs quickly the other team is at a disadvantage because dragon will be attacking them.

If you are smart with smite you can spam it all game long and still have it up when you need it.


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Elodin

Senior Member

11-27-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluball View Post
They're sounding a little like Blizzard now. Remember in WoW, when the new expansion would come out and the new amazing gear would be there? So many people would work so hard to get all the best gear, and a week later they would make it easier for everyone else, because it was "too hard". I, and many others, worked hard to get the "perfect runes" for jungling, and now that they changed the camps to be easier, it doesn't even matter. The work is a waste. Stupid, stupid, stupid.
You're still going to have an advatange over people who don't use those "perfect runes" you spent so long trying to get, the only difference is that they can actually jungle now instead of being screwed until they got the runes.


Just because this patch isn't convineant for you (You probably would be fine with it if you're just about to get into jungling because they you wouldn't have to spend "months" in order to get those runes... which idk what runes you're using but it didn't take me months to get runes I need for jungling effectively, maybe 2-3 weeks.)


Also, it's not like you did something horrible to get that IP in the first place, you played games, something you would be doing anyway, if you had to grind 500 games of SR as 0CS support Evelynn than I can understand, but the only thing that happened is you traded the ability to get a few champions atm.


I'm rambling a bit, but basically, get over it, your runes are still useful, just not mandatory, you'll still be stronger than a person who sucks/is using crappy runes.


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RichINFP

Junior Member

11-27-2011

Personally, I always wished that minions would get stronger progressively throughout the game -- nothing immense, but not as simple as 2 or 3 secs to wipe an entire wave.


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LiketheCar

Junior Member

11-27-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichINFP View Post
Personally, I always wished that minions would get stronger progressively throughout the game -- nothing immense, but not as simple as 2 or 3 secs to wipe an entire wave.
Minions do actually get stronger as the game progresses. Not catastrophically, but enough so. I think if they got as strong as it seems you're suggesting, where it would take a bit to wipe out a wave, you'd lose split-pushing strategy late game: in the time it would take you to clear out the newer stronger waves, the enemy would have found and destroyed you.

I slightly agree with the nerfing minions: it's far too ridiculous when a melee character tries to do his thing, and loses 200 health because he got minions aggro, and couldn't shake free. On the other hand, when it comes to the enemy minions and towers, it seems like they'd be too weak. I feel like at the very least, the caster minions should do half damage to champions, and let the melee ones stay the same. It sounds like a big nerf, but it really only stops the caster minions from destroying you, while the melee ones can still hurt if you aren't careful. This allows the minions to still hurt each other and the turrets enough, without punishing melee characters caught in bad situations.

Maybe it doesn't sound quite as good to others, but I think it would be a nice balance. I don't jungle, so I can't speak much for the jungle changes, but it still seems to me that the 'perfect rune combo' would still give a large advantage.


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Shiroi Kage

Member

11-28-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphisto View Post
This could have been a reason, however, the reason stated by riot (as I remember it) was so that the lanes would push and a player would not be required to be in the lane for a tower to be destroyed. The thoughts of towers at the time were that they were too powerful and a great safety net, so increasing the damage received by minions would force players to push and fight. This did not work out as well as Riot thought.
Maybe I should rephrase that. The reason why lanes were passive was because of the amount of health gained per potion VS the amount of damage minions dealt. The whole turret ordeal is odd as the use of minions was, and still is, to soak turret damage for the most part. Pushed lanes that make a comeback with a compiled 3-5 waves or so will depend on those minions to deal damage, otherwise I don't see many people depending on minion damage for pushing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphisto View Post
The reason I chose those champions is because that is who you will be playing solo top. If you pick Nasus expect to be against a tanky dps with some sort of long rage attack because your opponent will win the lane. If you walk up and attack him you will be taking minion damage. All your opponent has to do is walk away from you, hope you follow him, and attack you with his long rage attack. At best you've already lost about twice as much health as he has and at worst you've lost about the same health.

The problem with Jarman is his only real harassment is his Q or E, and both are AoE. This means that he will push the lane and lose control over the lane if he tries to harass. While AoE skills are good for later on in the game during the laning phase you don't want to overuse them. If Jarman tries to auto attack his opponent he will lose lots of health whether the minion damage is nerfed or not.
Well, you're right. I think I was reflecting more on the raw damage only put by minions which is only one factor. Still, depending on the magnitude of the nerf, the style of the champion shall be of more importance. Nasus's style is a defensive farmer in early game; he sits back, farms his Q and kills everything else with his AoE. Jarven is one champion that can harass while keeping control of the lane if his harassment is done correctly. He could use his spear and find an alignment to damage both minions and his enemy. Also, don't forget that caster minions have a tendency to keep aggro for a while and land more than one attack on their target from which short-ranged champions suffer much more than the ranged bunch.

Again, I'm not disregarding specific match-ups, I'm merely saying that those match-ups will have less pressure towards passivity applied by minions. Playing defensive against certain champions can be very active (luring them in with low HP and kiting or juking around turret to deal the major damage. Nasus, for one, can use a combination of his ult, exhaust and wither to survive a dive and have his opponent sustain massive damage, same with many other champions)


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Medved

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Senior Member

11-28-2011

The point of nerfing minions is to increase incentive to harras opposing laner early and mid game. Whats the easiest way to farm? Have your opponent not be in lane. You can do this by harasing the enemy and forcing them out of lane. Before, this was neglected by the classic, i scale into late game so ill solo top with cloth and 5 health pots. Now, health pots are nerfed, meaning its eaiser to harras the enemy out of lane. Thus, Promoting aggresive play. Reducing minion damage minimizes risk of engaging enemy at the creep line. I for one, like the changes. Also people saying that buying runes is pointless, There is no, OMG RIOT RUNE GIVEAWAY. You still have jungling rune advantages. Meaning your clear time will be much faster then a lvl 1 N00b. Junglers should be happy, this patch allows for less time afking on blue buff and more time spent effectivly ganking, invading, and deciding where to effecitly farm next.


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dotalegend

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Member

11-28-2011

Riot staff is acting exactly like ncsoft. Something is hard then they completely nerf it so that everyone can do it making all the pros angry. Theres no reason the jungle should be modified it was great the way it was before. All you need is a good hero for jungleing, smite and some basic knowledge of jungle. I have 0 runes and i am lvl 18 and I jungle perfectly. And having too many buffs to be acquired puts less importance on pvp and more on pve to get all of the good buffs but I havent seen them so im not sure how good they are but they will probably be like TT i assume.


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