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Volibear patch discussion: Jungling and laning dynamics

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Shiroi Kage

Member

11-26-2011

Hello people,

Did not find a thread to discuss this so I thought I might start one myself. The goal of this thread is to discuss the changes coming to jungling and laning and how they will effect the dynamic of each.

Here's my take on this:-

Changes to the laning:-

What I think this will do is a world of good to the laners. The changes to potions and minion damage means greater risk/reward on harassment, especially for melee champions. What used to happen is that you would try and get the odd ability or auto-attack on the enemy without getting into much else in early game. You needed gank-like surprises from the brush or some sort bind/stun in order to have early-game fights, otherwise it's a long series of chip damage THEN you could think of a full-on engagement. This shall also make for more careful consideration as to which champions are to be pitted 1v1 as champions with smaller range will be able to do more harassment early game instead of just allowing their opponent to farm at their leisure.
Also, much less "saved by the last tick of the potion" moments FTW!

Changes to the jungle:-

First of all: Easier jungle = return of the roaming champions, for obvious reasons.

I'm really hoping this will not increase the numbers on the isolated-monk-type jungler that, somehow, finds a way to stay in the jungle forever.

What it should to do, other than that, is to give everyone more options. What I'm hoping is that it will allow champions to jungle without Smite. Smite should play the role of a catalyst to the jungling process granting faster farming and extra gold but not being an essential part of jungling. This will, hopefully, make it more important to scout your opponent's jungle early game to know which of their champions is jungling had they chose to leave Smite and go for something else.

Another important something is that watching for jungle steals will be more important subsequently making warding even more important. Why? because the occasional wander into the enemy jungle will have a bigger chance of a reward as everything spawns quicker. Combine that with the nerfed minions and you have a much bigger potential for swift buff/minion steals like blue and wraiths. If that happens, it should encourage ganking as enemy junglers will spend more time in your jungle were they given the chance.


Oh, and scaling ExP on jungle minions should help the duo lane(s) to catch up when leveling in the late game if their team is decides to allow them a share of the jungle.

All of those changes combined, I think, will produce an interesting effect. The effect is that the choice of runes/spells can now be optimized for early farming or early ganking. Not only that, but junglers will also be differentiated to those with the ability to take down champions and corner them as the red buff will no longer make up for the total lack of some CC ability of summoner spells (depending on how much its nerfed) This means that not every champion will have to do something once they made their first round regardless if they're effective at that stage or not.

Finally, Buffs:-

Giving all minions buffs means choosing between the minor camps will have more to it than just difficulty and pathing.

Red buff nerf means that high attack-speed champions like Olaf, and some others, will have less chance of locking anyone in lane and will force more coordination between junglers and those in lane, increasing the importance of map awareness and reaction timing (simply ganking from behind will be less effective)

So, hopefully, this will net a very positive set of changes to the game.

Discuss as you'd like and give your opinion on the patch.


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Nerdsinc

Senior Member

11-26-2011

IMO, this only buffs roamers up. What about those people that spent months investing into runes so they could jungle efficiently? Now, we have level one's that can finish the jungle completely.

Nerfing the minions? Unless it's a super minion, stupid move IMO. Minions will be close to useless. Isn't the point of laning to farm? So, if you get wrecked by minions, then you're either: Too aggressive, or just plain unlucky.


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bluball

Junior Member

11-26-2011

They're sounding a little like Blizzard now. Remember in WoW, when the new expansion would come out and the new amazing gear would be there? So many people would work so hard to get all the best gear, and a week later they would make it easier for everyone else, because it was "too hard". I, and many others, worked hard to get the "perfect runes" for jungling, and now that they changed the camps to be easier, it doesn't even matter. The work is a waste. Stupid, stupid, stupid.


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PraiseEvil

Senior Member

11-26-2011

I didnt mind the respawn time of jungle that much.... but then they ****ed my mind over with the minion nerfs. The red nerf pissed me off as well.


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Metaphisto

Senior Member

11-26-2011

The funny thing about weakening minions is this: Riot buffed minions not too long ago because the weak minions meant that people stayed under their towers until late mid game to free farm or nobody pushed the lanes. They increased minion damage to stop the "passive play" that was going on. Now they are nerfing the minions in order to stop the "passive play." Obviously, the passive play doesn't have a hell of a lot to do with minions and much to do with current thought processes on the game. How about making farming less important than champion kills? That's really the only way to fix passive game play.

You will still need gank like surprises to take someone down...but it will have to be under the opponent's tower. I have no idea why Riot is reversing its previous changes when it changed nothing at all except for the damage done by minions.

I don't understand your understanding of short range champs being able to harass more easily. If you are playing as Nasus against Pantheon you will hardly ever get a hit on Panth while Panth harasses the living hell out of you. Take Irelia vs. anyone. Irelia can run in, slap somebody, and get out of there quicker than the other person can probably attack, especially if Irelia slaps and then stuns you.

If you are talking about taking less damage from minions not much will change. Now that minions do less damage most people will be over aggressive to start, get killed, and then go back to being passive and farming under the tower. I think of like this: If I can use a long range skill (Panth's or GP's Q) to harass you and take little to no damage from minions, why would I tank the minion damage in order to kill you outright? After you die I still lose out on xp and gold because I have to go to base to heal anyway. It's much safer and smarter to harass you and get last hits without taking damage. You are low on health, and perhaps out of xp range, so I can control the lane (whether it pushes, stays in the middle, or gets closer to my tower) and therefore I don't have to worry about ganks.


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Xero5268

Recruiter

11-26-2011

imo, everything was fine, and now this is gna throw alotta people off >_>;


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Metaphisto

Senior Member

11-26-2011

I'll have to wait to find out about the jungle changes. I can't see the small camps giving out any really great buffs since they are so easy to kill now. Riot also increased jungle difficulty around the same time they increased minion damage because Shaco (who can currently kill drag at level 1 if he's lucky and good) and Fiddles were able to solo dragon at level 2 or 3 and baron as soon as it spawned.

One thing is for sure: Fiddlesticks will return to being one of, if not, the top jungler. He'll probably wind up being first ban/first pick for the players who remember how deadly he was before the jungle buff patch and soon after be banned in every game.

I want to point out that I am not against the game play changes, I just don't understand Riot's reasoning for reverting all of the changes they put in not too long ago.


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Rancid Dolphin

Junior Member

11-26-2011

Quote:
Metaphisto:
I'll have to wait to find out about the jungle changes. I can't see the small camps giving out any really great buffs since they are so easy to kill now. Riot also increased jungle difficulty around the same time they increased minion damage because Shaco (who can currently kill drag at level 1 if he's lucky and good) and Fiddles were able to solo dragon at level 2 or 3 and baron as soon as it spawned.

One thing is for sure: Fiddlesticks will return to being one of, if not, the top jungler. He'll probably wind up being first ban/first pick for the players who remember how deadly he was before the jungle buff patch and soon after be banned in every game.

I want to point out that I am not against the game play changes, I just don't understand Riot's reasoning for reverting all of the changes they put in not too long ago.


interesting thoughts but from what i understand this is not the case. Basically aoe farming champions outclass singe target dmg junglers. He may be viable if you rank e first, but champs that are apparently insane (if not op strong) are lee sin, trynd, chogath, malphite, and other sustainable and aoe dmging charecters. Basically jungle now is faceroll farm and u get hp healing after killing blue and red, so any ****** can play and retarded charecter. Really bums me out because shaco is going to be unviable.

oh and check out this video, stonewall played the ptr and he has hands on experience with the new jungle patch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=F9RiJCifgJQ


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Okami Kageteiru

Senior Member

11-26-2011

The good:
Junglers will be much less predictable due to the jungle spawn times, there will be less of a "gap" of when there isn't any farm in the jungle, if there is any time gap at all. This will allow junglers to gank on their own time, when there are actually opportunities to gank succesfully, as opposed to junglers having to camp lanes while they are waiting for respawns.

The jungle will be more accessible to different kinds of champs. This will allow much more flexible team compositions, and with the increased rate of respawn, champions who generally require more farm will be able to make themselves at home in the jungle. At the moment, the jungle is really only a place where you stick tanks or tankydps champs, but maybe now we will see more ap jungles.

Junglers' sustain is being buffed significantly, making it less risky to gank. (I know from expierence that it is a little scary running full on into bottom lane with a little less than half my hp and a pot ticking.)

Junglers are less dependent on health pots, this allow for more flexible builds and you will see more than just cookie cutter starting items. (cloth armor, 5pots XD)

Champions that are losing their lanes could take wraiths, golems, or wolves to help catch up, and due to the faster respawn times the jungler should not be affected much at all.

It will be much harder for support to keep track of your jungle, increasing the chance for a sucessful gank opportunity.

The Bad

Counter jungling seems like it would be much less effective due to the faster respawn times (unless you are taking blue or red buff). This very aggressive style of play may just not be worth it anymore. I feel like this will encourage more passivity in the jungle. (you farm yours I farm mine)

Blue teams bottom lane could have a significant advantage in levels due to taking double golems multiple times in lane. We already see bot lane on the blue team taking them for a faster route to level 2, and now these golems will be more accessible. Not only that but the "buff" they give is actually just a quick heal based on missing health. This could potentially increase their sustainability by a significant amount. (not sure about the numbers though) The same goes for top lane Purple, a strong top laner could easily push up thier lane and snag golems. This can also be said for mid, but there is no side advantage there, as both mids could quickly and easily clear wraiths in their free time.

Small camps exp has been significantly reduced, which makes sense. (Even though they JUST increased the exp of the jungle...makes the new changes seem like a hasty decision imo) This has been said to create a longer route to lv 4, as lv 4 can not be reached by a single full clear anymore. This will make fast clearing champs (noc, udyr, shyvana) even more powerful in the jungle and could potentially create an even more strict meta than there is now.

It will be harder for your support to keep track of the enemy jungler.

Because of the health buffs, sustain junglers (like warwick and nunu) are made even less desirable. (as if they weren't already completely outclassed anyway)

Because of the air of unpredictability, you will probably see much more passive laning. Passivity also seems like it is being encouraged by the minion nerf (a lot of champs rely on minion protection early on) and the nerf to health pots (favoring champs who naturally have sustain in lane, Irelia, Renekton, Morgana, ect... like they don't already dominate...) This could make it much harder for the junglers to find overextended enemies, and with the nerf to red buff, champions without any, or much cc in thier kits will be less successful. (warwick TT_TT I know I have mentioned him earlier but he's my favorite champ and now he's garbage...) I feel like rammus is going to be evem stronger now...

Also I am gonna take a wild guess and say that there will be, Gp, Noc, and Sin nerfs incoming.

I'm sure there are more but this is already an unstoppable wall of text.

TL;DR
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=17655023#17655023
come up to your own conclusions then XD

also, let me just say that these are guesses as to how it is going to affect gameplay, we will really have to just wait and see, I mean the masteries ended up working out right?


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Metaphisto

Senior Member

11-26-2011

Thanks for the link, it was interesting to hear. Fiddles also has an AoE. It should be interesting to see how he does. I am and I'm not surprised that smite and wriggle's is no longer needed. Kind of disheartening to be honest. It seems that wriggle's will probably turn into an AD carry item only.

I can't wait to see all of the "This champ is OP now" threads.


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