Why no Warmog's?

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Ions03

Senior Member

11-15-2011

Brack lets just go to the next level Remove Atmas from the game summoners / Dominion / TT It screws meta up hardcore why build DPS items when i can STACK UP ***HP*** / ARmor and get the AD i need with an item total Bs that we have atmas and No Guinsoo (hex stick) or toss stick or refresher orb... it makes AD way to strong (but if you dont AP just melt everyone) so what do we do
?


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TheChief

Senior Member

11-15-2011

While I agree Atma's is a pretty beastly item, in no way, shape, or form should a refresher orb equivalent be introduced into LoL. It was a crazy item in DotA but casters didn't scale off items like they do in LoL. Having the two together would be asinine (and not just for the obvious double karth/annie/fiddle ults from casters but even for like mummy and gailo, it just doesn't work at all.)

I wouldn't mind seeing a hex stick and/or toss stick like in DotA but again, they were essential in DotA because casters in general couldn't scale up their abilities (no AP) so they had to get additional uses from items to keep them relevant late game.

I think the balance they have now between AD and AP is pretty solid... on SR. Ya, in Dominion AD seems to dominate (har har) but AP can still do good. People just choose not to use them as much.


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Lethal Kebab

Member

11-15-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brackhar View Post
Warmog's in general didn't have a great place in Dominion. Understand first that, as a whole, defensive stats in LoL tend to be under-priced compared to offensive stats. This posed a good bit of a problem for us in development, but ultimately we were able to mitigate it by adding the map-wide armor and magic penetration buff. Warmog's as a pure HP + HP/5 item is a defensive item that wasn't affected by that change though, so it still had that beneficial pricing. Further its core weakness, needing to build it up over time, it heavily mitigated in Dominion due to the number of assists that are generated, and in general it was the only real remaining "farm up" item we had on the map.

We had been planning on replacing Warmog's with a new defensive item for awhile now, but with the community starting to pick up on how good an item it was on the map we opted to pull the trigger now even though the new item is not ready. While I do wish we could have shipped the new item as well, we generally thought the game would be better off at the moment without Warmog's.
With squishy champs, warmogs was evening the playing field, the game is too fast paced for squishy champs already... BRING IT BACK


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Akitu

Senior Member

11-15-2011

While I dislike the idea of getting rid of it in general, I can live with that. What makes absolutely no sense is removing it before having its dominion counterpart entered into the game. Suddenly a lot of builds lose their usefulness, and it's going to greatly affect more champs than others, as it should. The combination of Warmog's and FoN did seem a bit too strong, again on some champs more than others, however this is just going to make people rage, and force down the ever shrinking list of viable dominion champs.

That seems to be the problem now, everyone's abilities are still built around SR, and not dom, however it can't be catered to both without losing some utility in at least one. The problem is ultimately the champs not being fully integrated into the new game mode. As was brilliantly pointed out, Cho's ult will almost never retain full stacks in dominion, especially with an item like Warmog's being removed, speaking entirely in general of course, specific situations not being mentioned.

Looks like my Yorick won't be able to hold bottom as easily... Bah!


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Ions03

Senior Member

11-15-2011

Chief isnt that the point??? to have more opitions so we can have fun ???!!!! TBH would it be more fun then to pick Earthshaker as LoL champ and pick AP and flash and reck... But the problem is Atmas is an item comparable to Refresher / Guinsoo / Euls.... Zonyas and cap r not as good as Atamas it gives AP dmg but at the end of the game Ad always win.. Ap carry let Aps be carries put more items in to allow other champs i would love a double Tibbers that would be so funny or double mummy Hell ive seen every Refresher Double in dota out of 20,000 + TDA games and i can tell you this game needs a refresher go to talk to DOTa vents around lan centers they tell u!


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lbgsloan

Senior Member

11-15-2011

The only thing that surprises me is they didn't go after atmogs on SR. I was getting atmogs on nearly every non-carry AD champion on Dominion, because you were generally assured it would get powered-up and the combination of high health, armour, crit, and damage was stupid good for the cost. Now I have to actually think about suitable replacements instead of going easymode every game. That's good, not bad for variety. Will be interesting to see what they have in mind for a replacement.


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TheChief

Senior Member

11-15-2011

@Ions: Yes, more options is generally more fun (something still bothers me when I see AP yi and chogath, champions originally meant for other roles and are now viable in completely uncharacteristic roles.) But if they added refresher, guinsoo, and euls then casters would be extremely OP, making the choice of a squishier melee AD no longer an option. So in the end, you wouldn't be adding options; you would be increasing the number of choices for a smaller group of champions and negating the usefulness of other champions entirely.

Yes, a double tibbers would be funny to see but impossible to balance. It would cease to be fun when it was happening to you by everyone else. In DotA, the most common refresher double was I believe the infernal cast. It was ridiculous because you would get a lengthy stun, a good amount of damage, and two controllable tanks. The only reason why it worked (arguably, I found it quite cheesy myself back then) was because the damage of the spell was locked. The only way to increase the damage was to build a refresher so you could do it twice. Icefrog knew exactly how much damage would be caused by a double infernal and assumed that everyone would build a refresher so he could scale it accordingly. In LoL, tibber's damage scales up linearly with AP. If you introduce a refresher orb, that damage snowballs out of control. Besides, it's such a strong item that in a sense it would reduce your options because it would be imperative that nearly all casters get that item as quickly as possible.


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Ido Hav Juan

Senior Member

11-15-2011

Warmogs was broken to hell on dominion and no one wanted to admit it

you could max out a warmogs in like 3-4 minutes honestly, and that amount of snowballing that quickly just couldn't be dealt with by most every team unless they were doing the exact same thing. Every match just became whichever team had more warmogs wins, and quite honestly anyone I went bottom lane with just ended up with 3k health within the first 6 minutes, welcome to winning bot every single game and just being generally unstoppable with a decent bottom laner

what they're trying to encourage is people actually using builds instead of just "get warmogs, nothing else matters because you've won"


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coffeerox

Senior Member

11-15-2011

I've seen Akali's buy Warmogs and power it all the way up with no effort and proceed to roll face.


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Phourc

Senior Member

11-15-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ido Hav Juan View Post
Warmogs was broken to hell on dominion and no one wanted to admit it.
Pretty much my opinion, it was a pain in the ass to counter since they guaranteed stacked it in a few minutes and you needed a Kitae's (2725) which, once you saw a warmogs was going to be like 5 minutes later before ya got it.. Since, you know, the kitaes is only good once you finish it and get the passive.

No, I didn't see it everywhere like some people did but I did see 1 or 2 most matches and it's just a pain in the ass to deal with.