Bot Lane Counter-Pick List

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Stimuz

Senior Member

11-08-2011

Janna bot #1 Soraka bot counter in my experience.


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Stez007

Senior Member

11-08-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finanzamt View Post
But that leaves an 4vs3 advantage at windmill for the team with Yorick.

Personally, the only Champs that gave me a headache at bot were Nasus and Riven.
All the other champs were either destroyed or very managable.

Yorick should be one of the auto-bans in draft dominion.
There is no item or gameplay (currently) to hard counter him in comparison to Akali / Jax / Rammus (overrated champs imho).

Also Heimerdinger is one of the more overrated champs in Dominion.
He gets destroyed by a bunch of champs that are not as vulnerable as him against other champs.

Greetings

I'll address the Yorick concerns by demonstrating how each champion I listed as a counter defeats him in lane.

Nasus:

Nasus is the bane of all melee champions, and that does include Yorick. Nasus can ignore Yorick's harass and, if he builds some CDR and plays well, can even farm his Q on it. In a fight, Nasus' ultimate shreds Yorick and his ghouls, while Wither eliminates any chance of escape and Spirit Fire shreds his tankiness. Yorick is completely mechanically countered by Nasus, even though Nasus' Q will not be very farmed. Yorick will be out-pushed, out-dueled and generally out-classed.

Sivir:

Sivir's attack range is considerably higher on Dominion than SR thanks to the lesser number of minions per wave. Sivir can use Ricochet at rank 3 to hit Yorick with a guaranteed one blade per autoattack, and she can do it from outside of Yorick's harass range. Should Yorick summon any ghouls, Sivir can stay even further away temporarily and not lose any pushing/farming time. Should Yorick attack her early on, he will likely kill her. However Sivir scales much faster than Yorick with items and levels (Boomerang Blade at rank 5 is even more devastating of a nuke thanks to its mana cost being virtually negated and its chance to hit more than one target lessened substantially) and will very soon be able to not only out-lifesteal Yorick's damage but instantly clear his ghouls and keep Yorick from utilizing his passive or ghoul damage. This is all not mentioning the fact that Sivir pushes considerably harder than Yorick at all levels and does have On the Hunt and Spell Shield (which blocks Yorick's slow when it is originally cast, but does not block the ghoul) to escape.

Heimerdinger:

Heimer has an easy time of standing back and pushing. He harasses harder than Yorick, especially since Yorick needs to get into the minion wave to farm, while being able to stay far back behind the wave himself. If needed, Heimer can grenade to keep Yorick at bay, and since Yorick needs to get in close to kill turrets he will not likely take Heimer's tower anytime soon. Admittedly, Heimer has the hardest time of the three against Yorick as he likely won't score any kills, but at the same time his tower is likely the safest.


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CorayThan

Member

11-08-2011

Soraka is a good singed counter. She silences him before he gets in range to fling and eats him alive with her starcall.


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Rebel Dragon

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Senior Member

11-08-2011

What are good counters to Urgot?


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BigDaddyRelish

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Senior Member

11-08-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebel Dragon View Post
What are good counters to Urgot?
Sivir. If you have an alright reaction time anyway, otherwise you'll just die repeatedly.

But if you can spell block his thing that makes him lock on you'll rape the **** out of him.


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Hobocop

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Senior Member

11-08-2011

I think Caitlyn should be added in place of Morgana as a counter-pick to Heimer. It's not even fair how easily she pushes Heimer around. Outranges his turrets by a mile, Headshot can just about instakill the turrets with enough AD, and her Q is still quite effective at clearing the minions on this map despite the slight damage nerf last patch since there are fewer of them.

On top of that, she can trap the middle bush closer to the enemy point to keep Heimer from ducking in there to avoid autoattack harass, and can trap the bushes near the bottom speed shrine to watch out for ganks, along with an escape skill and her ult to pick people off if they overextend even a little.

Morgana has the problem of not having reliable burst damage outside of her ultimate and can actually be pressured hard enough by Heimer so that his minions don't sit in her pool long enough for full damage.


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Necks

Senior Member

11-08-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stez007 View Post
Okay, massive justifications time!



I'm really not convinced in Urgot's strength. I haven't yet seen hi mdo well, personally.

As for Sivir v Ryze, Sivir can harass much more easily and from much longer range in Dominion than she can in SR. Since an average wave is only three minions, and they bunch up fairly close together, Sivir only needs 3 points in Ricochet to guarantee one blade per attack hits the enemy champion. With attack damage and speed, this adds up to a *lot* of damage that Sivir can put out for almost no mana (thanks to CS's mana buff) and at up to 1200 range. A well-played Sivir will rarely let Ryze get closer than that, as throwing a boomerang blade and running is enough to scare him off: the BB will clear the wave and force Ryze to deal, while Sivir stays far back in safety.



Mao'Kai is strong because of his tankiness and long range harass. He can put out some great damage against mages, too. I wouldn't call him the strongest bot lane though, but tbh I havent seen enough of him in action.

Fiddle is too squishy to face Yorick, and he suffers from the "better off top" caveat as well. His ult is too valuable for teamfights at Windmill, IMO, for him to go bottom. Additionally, he can't push as well as Yorick can and will be overwhelmed in short order.



My problem with sending an AD against Soraka is that they will be at a severe early game disadvantage. Most ADs can't put out the kind of damage Soraka can early on and have nowhere near the sustain, meaning they'll likely be overwhelmed quickly and cost their team a huge chunk of time and points. Zilean, for example, can stay well out of range of Soraka's harass while still farming and harassing himself.



Potentially. I actually forgot Ryze as a Mao'kai counter. I may switch him for Brand, or add him as a fourth option.

Morgana can't harass as well as Mao'kai. As a Morgana player, I feel like she'd be zoned hard and unable to score kills t omake up for it.



As mentioned in the OP, the matchup at top is considerably harder to quantify thanks to its 4v4 nature and penchant for splitting into smaller skirmishes. Mobility, for example, is much more of a factor--but is it as big a factor as burst damage? As tankiness? Bot lane has fewer variables.



I've seen the Singed/Yorick matchup twice and the key factor in both was Yorick's ability to ignore Singed's harass while using ghouls for his own harassing purposes. Once Yorick got Manamune Singed did not have a chance.



Most Nasus' I've seen, including myself, build similarly to his SR standard. It works quite well, as tank Nasus is nearly impossible to force off of a point 1v1, regardless of his Q's damage. I've heard good things about AP, though, and may try it out sometime soon.

As for Kayle, I find her lategame power to be much more useful bot lane, where she can have that slight gold advantage. On Kayle every item counts. She's a strong top lane support pick, too, but I find her early harass and lategame invincibility to be too valuable in a bot lane situation.



Talon is the equivalent of Tryndamere in SR. He's not extremely reliable, but if he gets going he's unstoppable. To stop him, you (any bot lane champion works) need to play hyper-aggressively and use Exhaust to score early kills. Fighting Talon is all about making sure you put him on the defensive. Out-ranging him of course helps.



Ryze gets tanky and strong, but isn't *that* tanky or *that* strong. He can be out-damaged and out-tanked by many champions, though not many of those can match his pushing ability at the same time. More importantly, he can't push *that* well. Outranging him and outpushing him is enough to keep his effectiveness down to a minimum, and these champions do just that.

Sivir is the ultimate counter to a pushing champion, as no one pushes harder than Sivir. She is also, as mentioned, very safe when she pushes as she can stand back and harass all day with Ricochet and Boomerang blade, without needing to worry about mana like she needs to on SR. She is countered by champions that can out-harass her and ignore her spell shield, which allows them to kill her fairly easily. Kayle, Cass and Malz can all do this while coming close to matching her pushing power.

I've played a *lot* of Sivir in bot lane, so I'm quite certain about these picks and her overall viability as a bot laner.

Malz isn't a one-trick pony, though. He can push hard and harass harder even without his ultimate. AD Malz is also pretty insnae if you see one, though I believe it's just a fad atm.



I'm skeptical about Anivia as she can't really 1v1 all that well. I could be wrong, though. I'll put her up with a * caveat (I think her AoE and wall are stronger top lane).



Will be putting Galio up there. I'll temporarily list his counters as Sivir, Graves and Talon*



Potentially, but I havent seen a really good Mao'kai go top just yet. I may add a * to him later.



Well, some champions are just "good picks" overall. I want this list to focus on champions that specialize in going bot lane and dominating the opponent. It's boring to see the same 10 champions every game, and not everyone owns those same champions, so this list will hopefully help people who really want a strong counter (but may not have the perfect pick) get an idea of who works well against whom.

I'll be putting Singed* on the list, though.



Most Nasus, as mentioned, tend to build like they do on SR: early Glacial Shroud into Frozen Heart later. Riven needs to be close to Nasus to kill him, but an armored giant sandstorm dog ontop of purple ground punishes her way too hard. Logically she's just not a good pick, but I confess I havent been a part of that matchup yet.



Morde just isn't a strong pick overall IMO. His ult is more useful in a teamfight, but he isn't tanky enough anymore to make much of a difference in teamfights. Bottom lane his ult isn't as strong, and he still isn't as tanky. He's certainly viable, but I question his effectiveness as a counter-pick.



As mentioned by someone above, Ez is far better off going top lane. He can't push well enough to justify going bot with him.



I don't find Cait to be especially strong, as lategame she's blown up easily. Compare to Sivir, who tends to build Atmog's and lifesteal over attack speed and crit. As well, Cait doesnt have the option for Banshee's Veil for survivability, while Sivir gets one built in.



Sivir's strengths are as follows.

-Hands-down best pushing ability in the game
-Ability to harass at level 5 for hardly any mana at long range, while still farming/pushing
-Spell Shield to prevent early ganks and to disrupt opponents' harass/kill combo
-Ability to build Atmog's and still put out excellent damage in an AoE
-Long-range poke/harass through Boomerang Blade

It's entirely likely that you were out-played or out-built. Try getting 3 points in Ricochet first and using your Ricochet/autoattacks to harass and kill ghouls/turrets. After that max Boomerang Blade. Rush a Sanguine Blade (start Prospector's/boots) and then Atmog's, and see how well you do. (Wit's End for MR, boots depend on how well you're doing/who the enemy is. Zerkers, Tabi or Mercs).

As for Heimer v Yorick, I' m feeling that you're just a better Yorick player. I've seen Heimer v Yorick a number of times and Heimer came out on top nearly every time. He can stay far back from Yorick's harass while harassing himself, and blind/stun if necessary to escape or kill.




If people spent as much time playing matches as they do typing novels on these forums, they might actually improve!


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SpaceFrog

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Senior Member

11-08-2011

Just wanted to note

I've been playing AD Malz mostly bot, and There is no counter to AD Malz :P

the counter is 2 bot or ganks.
Or just a really really aggressive pusher, with ults and summoners ready when I've got mine on CD or have understimated you and decided I won't need to use them.

but that's not a champ that has counter the AD Malz, that's the PRO summoner.


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Stez007

Senior Member

11-08-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Necks View Post
If people spent as much time playing matches as they do typing novels on these forums, they might actually improve!
That took 10min and I played a couple of games afterward...


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IS1eae7cbb510cc9b1e2028

Senior Member

11-09-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceFrog View Post
Just wanted to note

I've been playing AD Malz mostly bot, and There is no counter to AD Malz :P

the counter is 2 bot or ganks.
Or just a really really aggressive pusher, with ults and summoners ready when I've got mine on CD or have understimated you and decided I won't need to use them.

but that's not a champ that has counter the AD Malz, that's the PRO summoner.
There is: caitlin.

I've tried this with my brother, and as long as caitlin keeps the voidlings in check, there is nothing malz can do. She can just barely kill the third one(very likely) just before that voidling catches her. He will most likely kill her when he can ulti her with more than 1 minion alive. Take note here: he did see me play AD malz before, and knew that he had to keep the voidlings in check. That's the counter to AD malz, killing the minions and NEVER let him have more than one, as two will most probably kill all but the most tanky heroes, nevermind three.

But the voidlings do such crazy damage, it's impossible for any melee to even THINK to stand toe to to against them. I've gone up against AD sion with bersekers/phantom/sanguine/ulti, and my minions were melting through all that lifesteal like nothing. I'm almost screaming OP here, even if it's a hero i play myself