Playing for Personal Score Vs. Playing for Win

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Kiddalee

Senior Member

11-10-2011

You could have said this in so many fewer words! Like, one paragraph.


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NetherGate

Senior Member

11-10-2011

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Originally Posted by Kiddalee View Post
You could have said this in so many fewer words! Like, one paragraph.
Maybe condensed some, but even as it is now, many people don't comprehend the concept. As far as I can tell you dont either if you think it can fit in one paragraph. And I disagree, there are many very valid points made, and details and explanations that were absolutely necessary for players who are dead set against the concept when they start reading it. But whateva son.


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NetherGate

Senior Member

11-11-2011

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Originally Posted by Kanerax View Post
Well thought out post providing good insight into how to actually play Dominion.

Playing Nunu this way is alot of fun as well.
Yes, I think Nunu is a good counter champ. He counters Heimer most importantly, but might also be a pretty good counter for Yorick.


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NetherGate

Senior Member

11-11-2011

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Originally Posted by DedPheonix View Post
Yes, I think Nunu is a good counter champ. He counters Heimer most importantly, but might also be a pretty good counter for Yorick.
Lol, there are players that go around downvoting any post I do, I find it funny that I I'm the one bringing into irrefutable light the parasitic ways of their agro dumping practices. If everyone played like those parasites, the game would be completely wrecked. Apparently they want me to keep my mouth shut about it so they can continue taking advantage of good team players as long as possible until the scoring system is fixed. Well, it ain't going to happen.


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Vichar

Senior Member

11-11-2011

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Originally Posted by DedPheonix View Post
Lol, there are players that go around downvoting any post I do, I find it funny that I I'm the one bringing into irrefutable light the parasitic ways of their agro dumping practices. If everyone played like those parasites, the game would be completely wrecked. Apparently they want me to keep my mouth shut about it so they can continue taking advantage of good team players as long as possible until the scoring system is fixed. Well, it ain't going to happen.
I don't want to offend you, and I've never downvoted you, but might I present that you are being downvoted because of the attitude in your posts? You seem to feel that when someone doesn't agree with you it's because they don't understand. Perhaps they simply do not agree?

For example, I think that many times what looks like agro dumping is just the way that champ plays. I've been learning to play Shaco and I have no problem using deceive to juke my opponents. This necessarily dumps agro onto my (usually tankier) teammates. That doesn't mean I'm out of the fight. It just means I'm waiting for my cooldowns to reset.

Part of the issue is that you seem to be very strong on one side of the argument. You don't seem to think it's ever a good idea to dump agro, but I disagree. I would counter by saying that people should learn how to team fight. I see people doing this all the time--they commit to a team fight that cannot possibly be won (in your model I think you would say they pulled more agro than they could handle). Meanwhile, the poke in our champion select is superior. So why don't they poke to weaken them a while before rushing in to die? One might argue, well, the longer they hold the point the our score is ticking down. Well, that's true, but dying makes that worse, not better. Yes, mobility is much more important on dominion, but fights have to be won, and they are not won by blindly grabbing agro. I'm not making this point because I tihnk it directly contradicts what you are saying; rather I think the "pulling more agro than I can handle" problem is more more common and severe than the "dump agro onto teammates" problem that you describe. For the most part, I see running away as an intelligent maneuver when there is simply no chance remaining to take a point directly by force. Yes, money accumulates fast in Dominion, but feeding the enemy (without fair exchange) still hurts the team's chances.

As for waiting for a fight to start before participating, I'll just say that some squishy champs should never lead into a fight. This is only smart, because their abilities are way too valuable to be wasted if they die before proper delivery. It's possible that they weren't trying to increase their personal score, but rather they were trying to win the team fight.


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Vichar

Senior Member

11-11-2011

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Originally Posted by ZergSwarms View Post
Something that isn't being taken into consideration is that the winning team, more often than not, have better scores in all or most positions.

Games where the lower scoring team wins are anomalies, and until they are the majority, asserting that playing for score =/= playing to win is essentially void. Score may not be everything, but in the current state of the game scoring high is absolutely related to victory. There are problems and loop holes, but every argument to the contrary is essentially faced with: The higher scoring team is victorious the majority of the time.

Until that statement becomes invalid, there is little foundation for the assertion that scoring high is not related to victory.
I'm going to correctively upvote you +1, because you have a valid point. See, ninja cappers think they can win by avoiding fights, but this simply isn't true. You have to be able to kill enemies because of the game mechanics--even a drop of damage and your cap is interrupted. So winning team fights is still very important. No, we do not play to score a lot of personal points, but higher k/d/a suggests we were winning team fights, which gives an edge in gold and experience. While gold is less of a factor on Dom vs. SR, it still makes you significantly stronger. After a while, the enemy simply will not be able to win a team fight and will be forced to try ninja capping, at which point it is easy for us to simply zone deny them and widen the gold / exp gap by picking them off individually in the woods.


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ActionButlerGO

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Senior Member

11-11-2011

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Originally Posted by Vichar View Post
I don't want to offend you, and I've never downvoted you, but might I present that you are being downvoted because of the attitude in your posts?
"Let me just say that I am a true Vet as I have literally 2.6k wins or so amongst all modes and maps, etc."


Attitude might have something to do with the downvotes, yeah.


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NetherGate

Senior Member

11-11-2011

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Originally Posted by Vichar View Post
I don't want to offend you, and I've never downvoted you, but might I present that you are being downvoted because of the attitude in your posts? You seem to feel that when someone doesn't agree with you it's because they don't understand. Perhaps they simply do not agree?

For example, I think that many times what looks like agro dumping is just the way that champ plays. I've been learning to play Shaco and I have no problem using deceive to juke my opponents. This necessarily dumps agro onto my (usually tankier) teammates. That doesn't mean I'm out of the fight. It just means I'm waiting for my cooldowns to reset.

Part of the issue is that you seem to be very strong on one side of the argument. You don't seem to think it's ever a good idea to dump agro, but I disagree. I would counter by saying that people should learn how to team fight. I see people doing this all the time--they commit to a team fight that cannot possibly be won (in your model I think you would say they pulled more agro than they could handle). Meanwhile, the poke in our champion select is superior. So why don't they poke to weaken them a while before rushing in to die? One might argue, well, the longer they hold the point the our score is ticking down. Well, that's true, but dying makes that worse, not better. Yes, mobility is much more important on dominion, but fights have to be won, and they are not won by blindly grabbing agro. I'm not making this point because I tihnk it directly contradicts what you are saying; rather I think the "pulling more agro than I can handle" problem is more more common and severe than the "dump agro onto teammates" problem that you describe. For the most part, I see running away as an intelligent maneuver when there is simply no chance remaining to take a point directly by force. Yes, money accumulates fast in Dominion, but feeding the enemy (without fair exchange) still hurts the team's chances.

As for waiting for a fight to start before participating, I'll just say that some squishy champs should never lead into a fight. This is only smart, because their abilities are way too valuable to be wasted if they die before proper delivery. It's possible that they weren't trying to increase their personal score, but rather they were trying to win the team fight.


"You seem to feel that when someone doesn't agree with you it's because they don't understand. Perhaps they simply do not agree?"

Lol, so Im wrong? The Earth is flat you say? Of course they don't understand, or they don't want to comprehend that their success in their personal score has been from screwwing over their team mates. I'm just a little frustrated with having to repeat some of the same things like 5 times or more. Read as follows.

"For example, I think that many times what looks like agro dumping is just the way that champ plays."

Pulling agro as I define it, is when you can keep an opponent "occupied" through a close enough proximity to pose a potential threat. Attacking an opponent or opponents directly creates agro, kiting them creates agro, channeling a turret creates agro, do this with more than one opponent, as I said before, creating that player ratio advantage for your teammates.

"I've been learning to play Shaco and I have no problem using deceive to juke my opponents. This necessarily dumps agro onto my (usually tankier) teammates. That doesn't mean I'm out of the fight. It just means I'm waiting for my cooldowns to reset."

I dont have a major problem with this, thats their mechanics. There is some minor agro dodging going there, but you are doing some micro agro dodging there, so in order to minimize this (the point of the article), your focus in battle should be to get them to focus you, and escape, and focus you again and then escape again, etc. And if not focus you, then at least back them off of the attack on your opponents, surprise them and make them back up, etc. I would also highly suggest maxing your cdr to minimize your time agroless.

"You don't seem to think it's ever a good idea to dump agro"

Well, ya if you are clearly about to die because you have been focused or are outmatched, and the amount of time you could survive without escape would not achieve anything for your team, then, yes, you run. And your teammates should try to pull agro upon themselves to cover your escape. I honestly dont consider that dodging agro though by my definition. And what do you do then? You pop a health potion, immediately, hit up the nearest health shrine, and get back into that fight. Hopefully you have some health regen items or some spell vamp at play too. You should rarely have to go back. Im not saying never, but minimally. You have pretty much failed your team in that team fight if you just go back to the pool to heal and left them shorthanded. If you are getting purely damage items, without any sustain, you are pretty much an agro dumper. Depending on the fight though, they may have failed you by allowing you to be focused too long and not pulling enough agro themselves.

"Meanwhile, the poke in our champion select is superior. So why don't they poke to weaken them a while before rushing in to die?"

Do you mean harrass and kite damage when you say poke? Thats agro'd dude. Thats pulling your agro if its the same number of opponents or more at that location as there is teammates including your self. You dont have to rush in and die to pull agro. You have to pose the threat that if they leave that location there will be negative consequenses for them. Kiting and harrassing works great. Waiting and allowing your teammates to take very much damage at all before trying to break their assault is agro dodging.

"...but fights have to be won, and they are not won by blindly grabbing agro."

You have to expand your understanding of the game from one individual position on the map to the entire map. If you can keep a greater number of opponents at bay for a reasonable amount of time, your team mates have a number advantage on other side of the map. That's completely real man, they are going to eat up their opponents and take a turret. (Unless they are an agro dodger....) In a situation where the benefit outweighs the cost it is worthwhile. And you don't want to dive out and die instantly, how stupid is that? Don't know how you got that.... Pulling one second of agro is not usually very productive. The thing is, the only time you should buy your items is when you are dead really, it wastes too much agro time otherwise. That doesn't mean that you want to die constantly, you wouldn't have the gold for anything if you did that, would you? (Please remember, that this isn't Summoners Rift, while dead I barely have time to do my shopping sometimes.)
If your death gave your teammates 2 kills on the other side of the map, how is this bad? You seem to be framing everything in in the context that there is only one battle going on, there are 2 lanes for the most part, and what you do is a push and pull between them. The whole point is to play the game using a plethora of tactics relentlessly to create a 5v4 or a 4v3 advantage over the other team. You will have to die sometimes to do this, but it doesn't mean its worthless.

...but fights have to be won, and they are not won by blindly grabbing agro.

You can actually be pretty blind about it if the other people on your team are doing their job because they dont have 6 or 7 or 13 players, they have 5 or less at any given time. And if your team mates are good, they have those other opponents under control, or if you get ganked, your teammates should make it MORE costly for the opponents team to have ganked you than it was worth for the opponents. Now I repeat yet again, an agro dodger, gives the opponents a free roamer all the opportunity they want to do that.

"One might argue, well, the longer they hold the point the our score is ticking down. Well, that's true, but dying makes that worse, not better."

Sigh, I feel like I'm repeating myself for some reason. If you die creating an opportunity for your teammate to cap the turret, then your team mate has a turret to help them defend.... the turret. Which is most likely a much better defender than you would have been when you sacrificed yourself while you were almost dead. I know you were almost dead because you wouldnt have died otherwise, and that would have been even better to have the turret and both of you alive.

For the most part, I see running away as an intelligent maneuver when there is simply no chance remaining to take a point directly by force.

"You can also pull agro just as effectively by hopping from one unoccupied opponent turret to another, forcing them to chase you or lose it." You must have missed this section.

"Yes, money accumulates fast in Dominion, but feeding the enemy (without fair exchange) still hurts the team's chances."

Generally speaking, you get very little gold for a kill and a lot for minions. Goldwise you are better farming minions, so yes, I totally negate worrying about the miniscule amount of gold they get from a kill from my thought process.

And I do want to thank you for your post. I wish you would have read the thread a couple of times so I didn't have to repeat myself, which Ive been doing a lot lately, but thank you. As far as your metagame theories, no offense, but I looked up your account and unless you have another one, I have almost 10x your experience. This is is theory that has been pushed through the filter of experience, and what came out the other side is that agro dodging is devastating to my odds of winning, and a whole team actively pulling agro dominates.


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NetherGate

Senior Member

11-11-2011

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Originally Posted by Vichar View Post
I'm going to correctively upvote you +1, because you have a valid point. See, ninja cappers think they can win by avoiding fights, but this simply isn't true. You have to be able to kill enemies because of the game mechanics--even a drop of damage and your cap is interrupted. So winning team fights is still very important. No, we do not play to score a lot of personal points, but higher k/d/a suggests we were winning team fights, which gives an edge in gold and experience. While gold is less of a factor on Dom vs. SR, it still makes you significantly stronger. After a while, the enemy simply will not be able to win a team fight and will be forced to try ninja capping, at which point it is easy for us to simply zone deny them and widen the gold / exp gap by picking them off individually in the woods.
good god man, this is frustrating. you might be in team fights, and win them, but you are in LESS team fights, and the excessive number of fights that you are absent in your team is losing which means YOU are losing. You are responsible for those lost matches. You are responsible for the ground lost as lanes are pushed back on us during that time. You are responsible for your teammates deaths during that time, you are responsible for turrets lost during that time. You do very well WHEN you are there, but you bring something very big to the table, and take away something enormous. If you completely negate all responsibility for those things is living in lala land.

"While gold is less of a factor on Dom vs. SR, it still makes you significantly stronger."

As I responded to your other post, I dont think you understand the vastness of the difference between gold in SR and DOM. You get more gold from minions as I said, so you cant use that as justification. I always get higher gold collection than agro dodgers. But it doesnt matter. You are posing the snowballing arguement, when Dominion was specifically designed to prevent snowballing. Its a myth, as in it dont work that way.


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Vichar

Senior Member

11-11-2011

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Originally Posted by DedPheonix View Post
And I do want to thank you for your post. I wish you would have read the thread a couple of times so I didn't have to repeat myself, which Ive been doing a lot lately, but thank you. As far as your metagame theories, no offense, but I looked up your account and unless you have another one, I have almost 10x your experience. This is is theory that has been pushed through the filter of experience, and what came out the other side is that agro dodging is devastating to my odds of winning, and a whole team actively pulling agro dominates.
This is fair. I do want to thank you for taking the time to reply, even if you felt you had to repeat yourself. One of the reasons I'm posting at all is because I want to see you directly refute me in the hopes it will improve my game. So even if I don't appear to just agree with your points outright, I'm digesting what you've said in responses.

I don't have much Dom experience, it's true, but I've played around 1400 SR games (since beta). I realize we're in the Dom forums, we're talking about Dom, and part of my effort here is to understand how Dom differs from SR. Believe it or not, I did read through the thread quite thoroughly. Maybe I should state what I agree with first so you don't get the wrong idea.

If we are in a team fight, be it 2v2 or 4v4, and one of our teammates decides to "sit it out" until we've fought and come in hoping to "clean up", this is a bad strategy and serves to lose games. This was true in SR and it's true in Dom. So you won't get any argument from me. I agree with the basic principle of agro pulling, I really do. We've already discussed how I also agree that if your actions tie up more than your fair share of action points (what you call agro), you are winning from a team perspective. I also agree with that.

Rather than contradicting your point, I was trying to make two separate, but related points:

1. At my level of play, I see other problems as being significantly bigger than agro dodging, namely the almost reverse problem of pulling TOO much agro and dying needlessly.

I won't rehash what we've already discussed, but I do see this A LOT. Like you, I feel that every single second counts during a Dominion game and I can't help but feel that time spent dead is time wasted. And while you may feel that the actual gold of the kill itself is small, you can't farm minions or capture points when you are dead. So a kill inflicts opportunity loss on the newly dead as well as awarding you a small bit of gold.

2. Instead of just pulling agro, I wish my teammates would calculate (a chess term). Meaning, I wish my teammates would think about what they are doing before they do it, and try to evaluate their chances for success.

For example, if your champion does not have an escape maneuver, don't attack an assassin head on, and definitely don't initiate a fight. Let the tankier teammates lead in. I'm trying to make a case for the harmful effect of losing a team fight. Consider the case of losing the 4v4 at top for the windmill at the start of the game. It's devastating--depending upon how long it's held that fight alone could be worth 100 points or more. I agree with you--everyone needs to pitch in and grab agro during that fight. But there are some times when just being spotted by a certain kind of champ in the woods means certain death, with absolutely no gain for the team. Being spotted alone by Poppy, for example, is sometimes a death sentence. As a squishy, you do not want to pull Poppy agro. (What would I do? I'd let "sweepers" that are tankier initiate contact if we are in the woods, and I jump on them after that initial contact if I'm playing a squishy caster or dps. Likewise, if I am tanky, I would play the role of sweeper.)

So here's the difference in our strategies: I would argue for a general positioning strategy, both in a micro and macro sense. No, we don't sit around waiting for them to attack. We react according to what the board offers us, and decide if it's a better idea to defend what we have (possibly through zoning), or attack them where they are weak (maybe they went bot after losing wm).

Example: I see this again and again. After winning a team fight at the windmill, the team will push onwards towards a 4th point to try and cap that one too. The problem is, we will be wounded and some teammates may even have blue pilled back to base. Pulling agro by attempting another capture actually results in net loss--we will not only fail at the 4th point (because they defend as a team closer to their nexus and thus closer to reinforcements), but we will likely also lose the windmill because we are then dead and there is no one to contest the cap after we got killed. It would have been better if we healed up, formed up into a group of 4 again, and either ambushed them in the woods on the way to WM or fought them at the point itself. We are ahead as a team because the time we spend alive we can use killing minions, taking buffs, or ganking bot.

Even better is if we sent ONE champ with a great escape mechanic to threaten the point, and he pulls back as soon as resistance is met. (yes, I know you advocated this yourself, and I'm agreeing with you. Once again, I'm not contradicting you, but rather saying how I constantly observe your agro theory being misapplied. As if the attempt to do something should count the same as success in doing it. It does not.)

I know you are against what you call "hold 3", but I'm not advocating a blind hold 3 strategy. All I am saying is I wish the team would listen when I suggest that we should defend instead of attack sometimes, or attack instead of defend. The rule? There is no rule, it's just calculation of likely outcomes.

TLDR: We agree board control wins Dom. We agree that sitting around and doing nothing is dumb. We agree every team member should pull their own weight. I'm just trying to say, pulling agro alone isn't going to win the game. Intelligent evaluation of the likely outcome of pulling that agro is going to win the game.