Playing for Personal Score Vs. Playing for Win

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NetherGate

Senior Member

11-07-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aikimiller View Post
Interesting post, that covers an aspect of gameplay that isn't frequently considdered, but most competent players understand.

In Dominion, Time is your most valuable resource. That's why you always feel like you're in a rush when shopping. That's why mobility items are So. Friggin. Good.

Killing opponents is an extremely valuable thing because it denies the opponents time. This is why on most teams you really, really want a roaming assassin. However, you also don't want people going after kills at the expense of Capture Time, which a lot of people do. And if a team isn't effectively converting a time advantage into a capture advantage, then they're doing something wrong.

And so yes, playing for personal score is incorrect. You should be playing for Captured time, and having a coherent strategy as a team as to how to get it is, overall, the most important thing in Dominion. Which is why I can't wait for some high profile dominion tourneys- because that's the only way different strategies are going to become popular.
"Now it IS possible for an agro dodger to carry a game, but it is extremely rare in Dom, I mean like extremely. You have to be at like 25 kills or more, simply because opponents dont stay dead very long so it doesnt do all that much to kill them, but IF you do it enough, yes, it will work. But I cant express enough that this occurs with around 3% of agro dodgers. The thing is that you can pull agro on 2 opponents much longer than an opponent remains dead often if you are good. That is simply a greater player ratio advantage, its math man. You have to be CONSTANTLY killing left and right to be more useful to your team than a strong aggressive resilient pusher. But 97% chance if you are reading this, and you think its you, you are wrong and you are getting your team mates killed 25 times for your 15 kills. You have to be constantly slaying all game long to acheive this. Mathematically, you have to get a kill in less time than an opponent stays dead consistantly all game long or you arent pulling your weight with your agro dodging assassin strategy."

I pasted part of my thread above, please review it. I'm sorry, I disagree with you on part of that very much, and I will explain why momentarily. But the value of time extremely valuable in Dominion, this is abosolutely true, and we are totally on the same page there. Much of this thread is dedicated to describing the how to pull your weight in agro, and time is one of the greatest factors in doing that. It is easiest to calculate whether you are pulling your weight in agro if you understand that if you arent keeping one opponent busy all game long, you have an agro defecit for that time. That include time dead, time shopping, anything when you are not in close proximity to an opponent and you arent outnumbering them. The player that has the greatest agro excess when calculated in the end (all you can do is estimate really) is the player who won the game for you. He handed you the easy kills, he handed you the easy caps, he kept you safe by preventing you from getting outnumbered even making it so you outnumber them.

I will give a very direct example. My personal skill set indicates that Im best utilized as a pusher. There is always a bigger better dog out there, so I wont dare to speak in absolutes here, but of all things in this game, this is what I'm best at. Im truly nearly unstoppable. I can 1v1 almost anyone (LANING that is, where the push and pull of minions is a factor, not 1v1 in terms of Jax). I face, drive them back and take their turret, and keep going even. My kryptonite is not any champ there is, its a team mate playing the role you are describing. While I'm leveling my opponents life bar, desimating his minions, taking his life, his turret, and his first born son, the only thing that stops me is a second opponent. How could a second opponent be there? If everyone is pulling their weight, there is no backup opponent to gank me...... and we...... win. Its true that if you get a kill that you removed an opponent from the equation, and that is good, but in the mean time, you are leaving one of to run free and roam and help where they are needed most, which is ganking and killing me. So you didnt just get a kill dude, you have to understand the overall dynamic of the game. You got a kill for the team, you caused a death for the team, and lost the turret that I was about to capture. (And to put it in terms of time, you didnt just deny time from the other team, you denied it from you own team too when you got them killed.)

Just to vent in general, (and this is not directed at you, Aikimiller, I just need to vent on the subject) But you guys, there is a point in very early childhood when we understand object permanence. Before that, Peekaboo is FREAKING INCREDIBLE! A Giant person vaporized into nothingness, then rematerialized from nothing at all!! OMG THATS SOOOO Awesome!!!! That's why babies and little kids get a kick out of it, then we realize they didn't go anywhere. Well thats whats going on in this game. Out of sight out of mind, lol. If the your counterpart opponent disappears, that doesn't mean they don't exist anymore, or they aren't doing anything productive anymore, in fact they are most likely being as productive for their team as they possibly can be, instead of being stuck in front of you. You let them go. Whatever they do is your bad, its your fault, and the only thing you can do is to do more damage to the opposing team and their nexus as they are doing to your team.

Unless there is a GODLY roamer out there on your team, they are NOT!!!!! Helping, it only seems like it because every time you show up you are "coming to the rescue" of your team when its in trouble, but you are the REASON it was in trouble in the first place. Speaking of first place, you get all these kills which makes your personal score just fantastic, while you pissed all over your team mates scores in every way conceivable by getting them killed, denying them turret caps, ks'ng kills etc.

Now, drawing extra agro after the turret is taken is wonderful. (See my heimer responce above). But giving them their freedom is devastating even though the kills are fruitful. When I try to think about how many times this has happened, it reminds me of trying count the stars in the sky.

Maybe I need to go back and refine that original post, because for all of my ocean of words, I don't seem to have made certain points clear.

Now, Im not saying assassins don't have a role in dom, I'm saying ROAMING assassins don't. Assassins do a lot of damage, a lot of burst damage. You can kite with them (though its in a different way) but you keep the opponents in their lane or dead or you failed. Failure doesn.t bother me nearly as much as those who didn't try.

I mean its just math man, math dont lie. Yes, its based on estimation, but get in tune with estimating these things, learn to do it, its just like training yourself to keep an eye on the minimap, etc.

Sorry for my attitude in this post, its nothing against you, Im sure you play other roles than a roaming assassin, but I HATE having one of those on my team. It is my kryptonite, having one on my team is single handedly the cause of the majority of my losses.


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Vichar

Senior Member

11-07-2011

Hi Original Poster,

I can agree with some of the ideas behind your post. I do disagree with some of it, but it's possible my disagreement comes because you, by necessity, have to generalize a bit.

The thing is, some of the roles in the Dominion game are quite different now from Summoner's Rift. But some of the same principles still apply.

Some counterexamples:
DPS ranged carry. It's not my job to sit and take enemy fire, especially if you're playing a tank or tanky dps. Actually, it's to the team's advantage if I kite while maximizing shooting time / ability use. Sitting in the kill zone and absorbing enemy CC is not my job.

CC caster. A CC caster delivers their burst, applies CC to their heavy hitters, and then backs away while abilities are on cooldown. This is just smart play. Sitting around and going toe to toe with melee champs is not a good idea.

OK so maybe I'm misunderstanding you. Maybe you don't mind this sort of intelligent activity. Certainly the above roles should not be late to the fight. They should position for a team fight and the same team fighting principles from SR still generally apply.

What I really do think is more of a problem is the player that picks a squishy champ and thinks they are helping a team by running into the enemy team to die. If you pick a big damage dealer and jump into the fray to draw aggro, and die before you can right cilck on anyone, how is that helping the team? Sure, the death timers aren't very long in Dominion, but you have to add that to the cost of moving back into the contested area. Meanwhile, points are capped and neutralized while you are dead.

Perhaps I'm overgeneralizing myself, but I get tired of the lowest scoring team member (with fewest caps and neutralizations) criticizing me for being bad. Just yesterday I played Anivia and a Fiddle called me the "worst Anivia", even though I was 2nd in score. My kills weren't very good (I was 10/10/19 or something like that) but I had some epic moves that pretty much saved that game. Our top player, Kog, beat me in score ironically because he had many more kills. Frankly I don't care about the score, but a player is going to throw stones at me, they should look to their own suicidal tendencies (not grouping up with the team to attack intelligently) before they start raging in team chat.


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NetherGate

Senior Member

11-07-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vichar View Post
Hi Original Poster,

I can agree with some of the ideas behind your post. I do disagree with some of it, but it's possible my disagreement comes because you, by necessity, have to generalize a bit.

The thing is, some of the roles in the Dominion game are quite different now from Summoner's Rift. But some of the same principles still apply.

Some counterexamples:
DPS ranged carry. It's not my job to sit and take enemy fire, especially if you're playing a tank or tanky dps. Actually, it's to the team's advantage if I kite while maximizing shooting time / ability use. Sitting in the kill zone and absorbing enemy CC is not my job.

CC caster. A CC caster delivers their burst, applies CC to their heavy hitters, and then backs away while abilities are on cooldown. This is just smart play. Sitting around and going toe to toe with melee champs is not a good idea.

OK so maybe I'm misunderstanding you. Maybe you don't mind this sort of intelligent activity. Certainly the above roles should not be late to the fight. They should position for a team fight and the same team fighting principles from SR still generally apply.

What I really do think is more of a problem is the player that picks a squishy champ and thinks they are helping a team by running into the enemy team to die. If you pick a big damage dealer and jump into the fray to draw aggro, and die before you can right cilck on anyone, how is that helping the team? Sure, the death timers aren't very long in Dominion, but you have to add that to the cost of moving back into the contested area. Meanwhile, points are capped and neutralized while you are dead.

Perhaps I'm overgeneralizing myself, but I get tired of the lowest scoring team member (with fewest caps and neutralizations) criticizing me for being bad. Just yesterday I played Anivia and a Fiddle called me the "worst Anivia", even though I was 2nd in score. My kills weren't very good (I was 10/10/19 or something like that) but I had some epic moves that pretty much saved that game. Our top player, Kog, beat me in score ironically because he had many more kills. Frankly I don't care about the score, but a player is going to throw stones at me, they should look to their own suicidal tendencies (not grouping up with the team to attack intelligently) before they start raging in team chat.
Ummm, your talking about someone else man. Anyway, of course as a cc caster or a ranged carry diving in to die wouldnt make sense very often, (though there are times it would but rarely because you would die so fast and it wouldnt stall them out long). But you still need to pull your weight in agro, and keep lane pressure. Stay behind a bruiser or melee as much as possible and deal as much damage as you can and live to keep doing it more. If its just you and a bruiser, the interaction between the two of you should be imposing enough to FORCE at least 2 oppenents to stay there. If you cant do that, either one of you sucks, or your opponents are just better. You can do this by kiting all day long, I dont understand the issue there. If you are in lane pushing and there are no opponents there, you are f***ing up and your team mate is dying for it. You can make that all good if you TAKE THAT TURRET with a quickness. Then you capitalize on their mistake. Now sometimes to pull agro and keep opponents at bay, you arent so much biting as you are bearing your teeth. As long as you keep them there they arent jumping out of the bushes and killing your bot laner, or vice versa, right?
You need to control where they are by controlling your own threat level, and this required teamwork, after all, you cant "push agro", you can only "pull it", you get me?

By the way, I've personally found Anivia to be a very situational champ in Dominion. I would actually place her at T4 on this map, because even though you are occationally a beast, you contribute too little the majority of the game and it dumps a lot on your team mates during that time, which like I said is most of hte game. I didnt see the game, so I cant speak on it specifically, but I would guess that you werent "the worst anivia ever", its just that anivia aint too great in dom for hte most part as I said. I would say very roughly that she is a dozen champs from the weakest here. Opposite in SR.

Oh also, reguarding "diving out to die", if you cant do it very long, dont do it. Kite them, make it appear like you have something up your sleeve. Blast at them, dive in the bushes waiting for your cd to cool down and dive out , blast an ability, and repeat. Try to mix it up, but be in their face as much as you can without dying pointlessly. Keep them off balance. If you can stall 3 opponents by yourself by more than 10 seconds, then that is awesome in general.


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Vichar

Senior Member

11-07-2011

I totally hear what you are saying regarding "pulling agro" in a general sense--it's an old RTS idea. Let's say we as player generate "player actions", and their team generates player actions. If my actions consume more of their actions (as a percentage of their team's total actions), then my team play is superior (by your definition). I get that. The reverse can be true, too, however. Say I am defending top and I see that several have gone bot because our bot is awesome and pushing hard enough to draw top to him. I think to myself, "well, I shouldn't just sit around and do nothing". So I go to cap what I perceive to be an undefended point, only to get jumped in the woods and instagibbed (some combinations allow this to happen, and there are no wards in the game). What I've done there is just surrendered my point for free--it's a dumb thing I did there. I guess I'm posting in your thread because I feel like it's too easy for people to execute your ideas incorrectly--somehow thinking that "dying while trying to cap or neutralize" is a good thing. It's not. Often it even lets the enemy overwhelm us a quest point we are defending! You imply it in your original post by bringing up kill/death ratios. Obviously we shouldn't try to pad those, but we also shouldn't die excessively--in my opinion, dying is punished quite severely in dominion in terms of opportunity lost (you generate zero action points while you are dead and you leave your team vulnerable to counterplay).

So what am I advocating? I like a "right move for the right situation" approach. Sometimes we want to attack a point and sometimes we want to defend a point. If they are trying to steal our back points, we should consider playing zone interdiction--because if we manage to kill them in isolation, we know we have a few seconds free to assault one of their points and likely win that fight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DedPheonix View Post
By the way, I've personally found Anivia to be a very situational champ in Dominion. I would actually place her at T4 on this map, because even though you are occationally a beast, you contribute too little the majority of the game and it dumps a lot on your team mates during that time, which like I said is most of hte game. I didnt see the game, so I cant speak on it specifically, but I would guess that you werent "the worst anivia ever", its just that anivia aint too great in dom for hte most part as I said. I would say very roughly that she is a dozen champs from the weakest here. Opposite in SR.
While we are off on this tangent (because I'm an anivia fan), the jury is still out on Anivia for me. She's slow, no argument there, and she has no blink move. She's a siege engine, used for assaulting points. I'm quite good at landing the skillshot and Anivia still generates a lot of CC. Also, Anivia controls a point during an assault or a defense through area interdiction. I still believe Anivia has one of the highest magical damage outputs in the game, and it is quite useful in dominion to be able to put someone down fast. It doesn't hurt that Anivia has AOE as well at sick range to interrupt capping.


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NetherGate

Senior Member

11-07-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vichar View Post
I totally hear what you are saying regarding "pulling agro" in a general sense--it's an old RTS idea. Let's say we as player generate "player actions", and their team generates player actions. If my actions consume more of their actions (as a percentage of their team's total actions), then my team play is superior (by your definition). I get that. The reverse can be true, too, however. Say I am defending top and I see that several have gone bot because our bot is awesome and pushing hard enough to draw top to him. I think to myself, "well, I shouldn't just sit around and do nothing". So I go to cap what I perceive to be an undefended point, only to get jumped in the woods and instagibbed (some combinations allow this to happen, and there are no wards in the game). What I've done there is just surrendered my point for free--it's a dumb thing I did there. I guess I'm posting in your thread because I feel like it's too easy for people to execute your ideas incorrectly--somehow thinking that "dying while trying to cap or neutralize" is a good thing. It's not. Often it even lets the enemy overwhelm us a quest point we are defending! You imply it in your original post by bringing up kill/death ratios. Obviously we shouldn't try to pad those, but we also shouldn't die excessively--in my opinion, dying is punished quite severely in dominion in terms of opportunity lost (you generate zero action points while you are dead and you leave your team vulnerable to counterplay).

So what am I advocating? I like a "right move for the right situation" approach. Sometimes we want to attack a point and sometimes we want to defend a point. If they are trying to steal our back points, we should consider playing zone interdiction--because if we manage to kill them in isolation, we know we have a few seconds free to assault one of their points and likely win that fight.



While we are off on this tangent (because I'm an anivia fan), the jury is still out on Anivia for me. She's slow, no argument there, and she has no blink move. She's a siege engine, used for assaulting points. I'm quite good at landing the skillshot and Anivia still generates a lot of CC. Also, Anivia controls a point during an assault or a defense through area interdiction. I still believe Anivia has one of the highest magical damage outputs in the game, and it is quite useful in dominion to be able to put someone down fast. It doesn't hurt that Anivia has AOE as well at sick range to interrupt capping.

Ahh, you have a riddle for me. thank you. And the answer is that your team mates made the mistake there, not you. And you died for it. And now I put it back into your court to tell me what YOU think that I think your team mates should have done.

Honestly Im far more worried I will get stuck with "roaming assassin" on my team than anything.

You are one of the smartest and most savvy players to respond to this thread regaurding map control metagame, congratz.

Reguarding death... You dont stay dead much longer than you go back to shop!, lol. But then again, I use several of the following always, so death is a very minor punishment.

*(Reguarding death. You are pulling no agro while dead, nor are you until you get back into close proximity to a turret or an opponent. Therefore items, spells and abilities that increase your movement speed always or temporarily are extremely valuable in dominion. Ghost, revive, haste, good hands, Shurelya's Reverie, Priscilla's Blessing, boots of swifteness, and boots of mobility are all great. There are more factors than just speed in Dominion, but a haste passive or ability on a champ is boss.
Nearly the same thing applies to going back to heal or shop. Thats nearly as bad as dying. I do much of my shopping while dead. If you have to go back to base a lot for any reason whatsover, STOP THAT! Get some sustainability man. And definately use one or two or three or more of the items or spells or abilities listed above to decrease the time you are out of action. When you are not in action, your buddies are in danger.
I personally feel that Shurelya's is a massively under rated item. Everything about it is beautiful.)

And no you dont what to die excessively, but what is excessively?....

" I guess I'm posting in your thread because I feel like it's too easy for people to execute your ideas incorrectly--somehow thinking that "dying while trying to cap or neutralize" is a good thing. It's not. Often it even lets the enemy overwhelm us a quest point we are defending!"
------Ya but.... Its usually a good thing, lol. Judgement has to play a role because there are too many variables... but generally speaking, a cap is well worth a death. If the remaining team mate or team mates can hold that point for long enough, that mad agro. Elswhere on the map your team can lay waste. But I cant express enough how important mobility is.

Which brings me to Anivia. Beast, or sitting duck? Both. But she becomes a sitting duck if she isn't with at least 2 other champs usually. A smart team will attack 2 turrets she isnt at. Then what happens? She is slow. The champs that she needs to stay with are either split up from her, or she slows them down... Just deny her the big group fight that she needs to enter god mode. Her cd's seem too long to me, and her movement speed too. If you start wrapping your build around compensating for this too much, I think that she would just lose too much of her AP potency, and then what do you have? I think that in the hands of a beastly Anivia player, she could be good at best. I havent played her all that much in Dominion, so I admit a certain measure of speculation.


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NetherGate

Senior Member

11-07-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignistos View Post
Very good post man, couldn't agree more.
Thanks


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NetherGate

Senior Member

11-10-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vichar View Post
I totally hear what you are saying regarding "pulling agro" in a general sense--it's an old RTS idea. Let's say we as player generate "player actions", and their team generates player actions. If my actions consume more of their actions (as a percentage of their team's total actions), then my team play is superior (by your definition). I get that. The reverse can be true, too, however. Say I am defending top and I see that several have gone bot because our bot is awesome and pushing hard enough to draw top to him. I think to myself, "well, I shouldn't just sit around and do nothing". So I go to cap what I perceive to be an undefended point, only to get jumped in the woods and instagibbed (some combinations allow this to happen, and there are no wards in the game). What I've done there is just surrendered my point for free--it's a dumb thing I did there. I guess I'm posting in your thread because I feel like it's too easy for people to execute your ideas incorrectly--somehow thinking that "dying while trying to cap or neutralize" is a good thing. It's not. Often it even lets the enemy overwhelm us a quest point we are defending! You imply it in your original post by bringing up kill/death ratios. Obviously we shouldn't try to pad those, but we also shouldn't die excessively--in my opinion, dying is punished quite severely in dominion in terms of opportunity lost (you generate zero action points while you are dead and you leave your team vulnerable to counterplay).

So what am I advocating? I like a "right move for the right situation" approach. Sometimes we want to attack a point and sometimes we want to defend a point. If they are trying to steal our back points, we should consider playing zone interdiction--because if we manage to kill them in isolation, we know we have a few seconds free to assault one of their points and likely win that fight.



While we are off on this tangent (because I'm an anivia fan), the jury is still out on Anivia for me. She's slow, no argument there, and she has no blink move. She's a siege engine, used for assaulting points. I'm quite good at landing the skillshot and Anivia still generates a lot of CC. Also, Anivia controls a point during an assault or a defense through area interdiction. I still believe Anivia has one of the highest magical damage outputs in the game, and it is quite useful in dominion to be able to put someone down fast. It doesn't hurt that Anivia has AOE as well at sick range to interrupt capping.
I have to take back that Anivia is one of the worst champs in Dom, Ive had some reasonable success with a build on her recently, but not in higher level games. Has yet to be tested there. Still not a T1 and probably not a T2 though.


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Pisazen

Member

11-10-2011

I try do this a lot, keeping 2 busy at bot.It works well,,but when you get a team that has no clue to take advantage of the situation it gets very frustrating.


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EMeta

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Senior Member

11-10-2011

To the OP: Right on.

Re Aniva: Good on Dom pretty much only if she has boots of mobility. With them, she can do all the sieging she needs to; without them she's just too slow to be where it matters.


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NetherGate

Senior Member

11-10-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pisazen View Post
I try do this a lot, keeping 2 busy at bot.It works well,,but when you get a team that has no clue to take advantage of the situation it gets very frustrating.
Daaaaaamn straight dude.


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