am i the only one who thinks backdooring is a bad idea?

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E0L

Senior Member

10-31-2011

i say this because when you fight for top and your eve,shaco,twitch,yi or what have you go straight for the enemy points instead of helping your team secure top and not force them to 3v4 its rather more helpful then letting your team get split apart and steam rolled all game.

can we agree on this fact.... that champs who do nothing but backdoor all game accomplish nothing. is it not obvious that its not the act of capturing a point that wins the game but the act of holding the majority of points that does.

if this logic has not become clear to you by now, the only thing your accomplishing is proving what i feel is a growing indication that people who play dominion are by and large far less skilled then those in SR.


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DesertHavok

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Recruiter

10-31-2011

Mmm, got quite a few arguments there but don't have the time.

By you capturing a point you, have in fact changed the course of the game which also brings your team to act differently than if you had not captured that point at all. So In a sense, I both agree & disagree with you because no matter what it's not a 1 person team and you can only do so much when theres 5 points.


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CyberGrrl

Junior Member

10-31-2011

I have to say this: backcapping eve is a viable playstyle. Consider the following.

-While eve goes to the opposite team's mid and caps that, yall are still fighting at top in most cases. That means that it's now a 3-1 capture situation. If you lose the top fight and they get it, guess what? It's still 3-2. If all she got was a neutralize out of it? Then that's STILL one less point that the enemy has.

-She distracts players from where they want to be. By backcapping undefended points, she may well be taking a valuable asset from a teamfight that's going in the opponent's favor. She can do this over and over again; forcing at least one player to try to undo the damage she's done. Not only is she capping points for your team and chipping away at their nexus' health, she's taking resources out of commission for as long as it takes them to correct this issue.

-She helps in jungle fights with a well coordinated team. She can see when you're in the jungle in a losing battle while she's backcapping, stealth, and come help you. The enemy is used to her going after points, so they probably won't be expecting her to pop up and shove spikes through their shoes.

Need I go on? While I agree that most eves don't do much, a GOOD eve can and WILL win your game for you.


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E0L

Senior Member

10-31-2011

I have to say this: backcapping eve is a viable playstyle. Consider the following.

-While eve goes to the opposite team's mid and caps that, yall are still fighting at top in most cases. That means that it's now a 3-1 capture situation. If you lose the top fight and they get it, guess what? It's still 3-2. If all she got was a neutralize out of it? Then that's STILL one less point that the enemy has.

flawed argument that isnt reflective of actual scenarios. this is the argument all eves have, because it only exists in their mind. what really happens is that top gets pushed out by superior numbers and is automatically conceded. then eve is chased off before she ever finishes caping the point, probably before she even gets it to neutral.


-She distracts players from where they want to be. By backcapping undefended points, she may well be taking a valuable asset from a teamfight that's going in the opponent's favor. She can do this over and over again; forcing at least one player to try to undo the damage she's done. Not only is she capping points for your team and chipping away at their nexus' health, she's taking resources out of commission for as long as it takes them to correct this issue.

once again a completely flawed argument, it takes far too long for eve to take over a point, which is easily recaptured or saved. there is no such thing as an undefended point because this magical point is in the middle of two defended points which can be collapsed on at any time. the only time backcaping is successful is when youve already established map control and whiped a team after they attempted a retake.

-She helps in jungle fights with a well coordinated team. She can see when you're in the jungle in a losing battle while she's backcapping, stealth, and come help you. The enemy is used to her going after points, so they probably won't be expecting her to pop up and shove spikes through their shoes.

still flawed. while shes busy backcaping and losing the point right away. her team is dead. her 1 stolen cap always results in her team losing two other points taken in response.

Need I go on? While I agree that most eves don't do much, a GOOD eve can and WILL win your game for you.

please do as youve demonstrated hypothetical that never happen. the only successful eve are eves that are carried by their team. when a team needs their dps to team fight and they are not present back capping eves are just a bigger handicap


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CyberGrrl

Junior Member

10-31-2011

In every single game that I play capper eve, I get the cap on the opposite team's mid before that top fight is over. Every. Single. Time. Maybe the eves you've been playing with don't start with boots of mobility, maybe they don't get priscilla's blessing, maybe they have no map awareness.

It never takes too long to neutralize a point once priscilla's blessing is on, maybe to fully cap one it does. In my mind, having the enemy hold less points is a good thing, no matter how long or short that time is; or am I missing the point of capture and hold? Because if it's neutralized it's no longer held correct?

There is ALWAYS an undefended point. Top, bot, or mid, there is always an undefended point. Knowing how fast your neutralize/cap takes vs how long it'll take champ x to get to you goes a long way to deciding exactly which point to cap. It's not just a question of "oh there's no one there guess I'll try it".

Having said that, I do realize there are champs that utterly destroy the backcapping strategy. Ez, Ashe, GP, TF, just to name a few. In cases like that I completely agree with you, and the capper should adjust playstyles accordingly.

I think your strong bias against it is that you haven't seen a really GOOD one. Give it time, give it a chance; hell, try it out for yourself and see if it isn't viable. (BTW it's fun as hell.)


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Inkyjinx

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Senior Member

10-31-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by E0L View Post
I have to say this: backcapping eve is a viable playstyle. Consider the following.

-While eve goes to the opposite team's mid and caps that, yall are still fighting at top in most cases. That means that it's now a 3-1 capture situation. If you lose the top fight and they get it, guess what? It's still 3-2. If all she got was a neutralize out of it? Then that's STILL one less point that the enemy has.

flawed argument that isnt reflective of actual scenarios. this is the argument all eves have, because it only exists in their mind. what really happens is that top gets pushed out by superior numbers and is automatically conceded. then eve is chased off before she ever finishes caping the point, probably before she even gets it to neutral.


-She distracts players from where they want to be. By backcapping undefended points, she may well be taking a valuable asset from a teamfight that's going in the opponent's favor. She can do this over and over again; forcing at least one player to try to undo the damage she's done. Not only is she capping points for your team and chipping away at their nexus' health, she's taking resources out of commission for as long as it takes them to correct this issue.

once again a completely flawed argument, it takes far too long for eve to take over a point, which is easily recaptured or saved. there is no such thing as an undefended point because this magical point is in the middle of two defended points which can be collapsed on at any time. the only time backcaping is successful is when youve already established map control and whiped a team after they attempted a retake.

-She helps in jungle fights with a well coordinated team. She can see when you're in the jungle in a losing battle while she's backcapping, stealth, and come help you. The enemy is used to her going after points, so they probably won't be expecting her to pop up and shove spikes through their shoes.

still flawed. while shes busy backcaping and losing the point right away. her team is dead. her 1 stolen cap always results in her team losing two other points taken in response.

Need I go on? While I agree that most eves don't do much, a GOOD eve can and WILL win your game for you.

please do as youve demonstrated hypothetical that never happen. the only successful eve are eves that are carried by their team. when a team needs their dps to team fight and they are not present back capping eves are just a bigger handicap
i have over 225 dominion games, most of them with Eve. and i'm well over 50% win with her, generally 1st or 2nd in points.

it isn't a flawed argument. it's simply a fact. the initial teamfight @ windmill is, indeed, set as 4v3. if the opponent keeps everyone top and wins windmill, Eve will capture their mid. if they break someone off, it's 3v3.

this is simply fact. your Eve players have sucked.

2nd: a smart Eve doesn't just backdoor all day. they roam, gank, save points and use her movement to be a major pain.

the thing people don't get about Eve is that she's best played as a distraction. please (please!) spend your time chasing me and running from point to point as the rest of my team pushes.


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Fireryda

Senior Member

10-31-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inkyjinx View Post
the thing people don't get about Eve is that she's best played as a distraction. please (please!) spend your time chasing me and running from point to point as the rest of my team pushes.
Isn't this the point of backdooring? Run around neutralizing points and capping it if possible so the enemy team has to chase you down while your team pushes or does something because the enemy team is after you.


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PrincessDerpy

Senior Member

10-31-2011

If you can't beat the other team in a stand-up fight on a point, you need to force them to split their forces. There are only two ways to accomplish this: your bot pushes so hard against theirs that their bot needs help... or you need a backcapper.


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Argotto

Senior Member

10-31-2011

It is very situational. If you have 1 or 2 top holding the point, but 4 people rush your mid, then I would have 1 from top just rush their mid and cap it in return. They now have a choice. Recall back and try to take their mid back, or hold our mid.

However, if you control 3 points (your mid and bot + windmill), then I think it is a bad idea to rush immediately for a 4th.


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Skeeep

Senior Member

10-31-2011

It's simple. Backdooring is good in moderation. People that never stop backdooring just turn the game into a 4v5. As soon as the enemy team figures that backdooring is all you are going to do, you are rendered ineffective. You are now becoming predictable and being shut down.

Now 3-4 well timed backdoors in a game are crucial to break up stubborn pushes.