Warmogs

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Rickert

Senior Member

10-27-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by frumper View Post
I'm not sure what makes you think I'm ignoring it. Warmog's is commonly referred to as the worst cost/benefit item in the game, add in the dominion nerf to healing and I just don't know what else to say other than try building differently and see if your results don't improve.
Warmog: 3000g and it gives you almost double health (just ignore health regens).
Frozen Mallet: 3250g and it gives you a slow, 700 health and 20 damage, which is offset by additional health from warmog, which will turn into ~14 dmg.

The slow part on Frozen Mallet is situational, especially if you equip it on melee champions. Mostly these two items are used for tanky dps, since if dps champs (range dps, yi, trynd, sion...) buy it, they won't do much necessary damage at early to mid game (assuming both side are balance). For tanky dps, how often do you see people auto attack (except a few like Olaf)?

It's really annoying if 3 or more people on the other team get atmogs.


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frumper

Senior Member

10-27-2011

OP, sorry for derailing your thread into a mechanics post I guess...

Quote:
It's actually one of the best. It gives you completely absurd amounts of survivability, to the tune of giving you more survivability against physical attacks than Thornmail while also giving you massive survivability against magic damage
Comparing the defense viability of health to armor and magic is not a linear nor intelligent comparison (apples to oranges bro). I'm sure there's plenty of threads that show the math as to why, but the jist of it is that the value of health increases the more armor/magic you have.


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Putzfrau

Senior Member

10-27-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by frumper View Post
Comparing the defense viability of health to armor and magic is not a linear nor intelligent comparison (apples to oranges bro). I'm sure there's plenty of threads that show the math as to why, but the jist of it is that the value of health increases the more armor/magic you have.

while your statement is absolutely true, your effective health does increase by a larger value when combining health and armor/mr, to say you can't compare health to armor/mr is stupid.

all three stats are purely defensive. let's assume in this situation you're picking between one or the other. you're not buying randuins, your buying warmogs or thormail (if they had the same cost/benefit for the cost). at that point the "better" defensive item is going to be determined by the enemy team. because you're DELIBERATELY picking ONE defensively oriented item over another, you absolutely can compare then, and should.

armor/mr simply make each point of health you have worth more. having more health works as well. all it means is that when you combine health/armor/mr you'll get a greater advantage over just stacking one, or the other. i dont think anyone was advocating just stacking warmogs and that'll be your best defensive option in all scenarios.

to say that warmogs helps against physical and magical attacks is absolutely true, and in that sense is probably the smarter FIRST defensive item to get against a balanced team. i have no idea about its actual cost -> survivability ratio when compared to thornmail or randuins or anything, but saying you CAN'T compare an armor oriented item to a health oriented item is foolish and not true.


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frumper

Senior Member

10-27-2011

Quote:
to say that warmogs helps against physical and magical attacks is absolutely true
I do not disagree. I did not bring up the armor, mr argument, mine was Warmogs vs Mallet.

Quote:
probably the smarter FIRST defensive item to get against a balanced team
Valid statement, invalid in practice because dominion teams are rarely if ever balanced between armor/magic.

Quote:
saying you CAN'T compare an armor oriented item to a health oriented item is foolish and not true
Unless you're factoring in all of the variables, it's a big waste of time. If you want to compare two BUILDS including all of the variables (current health/armor/mr and current armor/magic penetration), I think that's a valid exercise, but this comparison would need to occur over time, 5 mins in, 10 mins in, etc. At the end of this exercise, what have you learned that is applicable to the game? Not much.

I think we both have a very sound understanding of the mechanics btw, so I'll agree to disagree on builds due to personal preference


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Rickert

Senior Member

10-27-2011

Usually a team without balance between magic and physical damage on top of CC is going to fail. Thus, warmogs will always have its place.


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Ulstan

Senior Member

10-27-2011

None of the really strong champions on Dominion build atmogs.

Shaco, Akali, Teemo, Jax, Poppy, Rammus, Ryze, EZ, Blitz, Yorick, Heim, Karthus, Kassdin - all these guys do not run for an atmogs.


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Putzfrau

Senior Member

10-27-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by frumper View Post

Unless you're factoring in all of the variables, it's a big waste of time. If you want to compare two BUILDS including all of the variables (current health/armor/mr and current armor/magic penetration), I think that's a valid exercise, but this comparison would need to occur over time, 5 mins in, 10 mins in, etc. At the end of this exercise, what have you learned that is applicable to the game? Not much.

I think we both have a very sound understanding of the mechanics btw, so I'll agree to disagree on builds due to personal preference
why do you need to compare builds? when comparing builds i'd assume at least that you're balancing your defensive stats, unless your playing an extremely physical or magic heavy team. the only time a comparison would ever need to be done is when you're choosing one ITEM over another, because you only get the benefits from your full build in portions.

lets say in this hypothetical scenario your FIRST item is going to be defensive. you're choosing between warmogs, an equivalent armor item, and an equivalent mr item (lets pretend that those items exist, even if there isn't an actual equivalent). you're initial statement was its not smart to compare the benefits of just health to the benefits of just armor, because together they compound the effects of each other, giving you a greater result. thats fantastic, assuming your buying an item with all the defensive stats, or are referring to a full build, that will eventually have all the defensive stats. but you're not doing that. you're comparing the DIRECT benefit of one item over the other, which i think is important.

even if your full build will eventually have all three of these items, picking warmogs first will be the better option MOST of the time, especially if you are building an atmas, and especially if the enemy team is balanced.

if they are SUPER heavy on physical or magical damage, clearly you will adjust, but thats not what you said.

basically as you buy each item, yes you're working towards an eventual build, but you're also building items that'll help you IN THAT MOMENT, and items that are eventually in your build aren't going to help you.

warmogs/atmas is superior to frozen mallet IMO, merely because in dominion you're rarely chasing, so the slow is near useless. you're fighting on nodes or skirmishing in the jungle. the objective is never to get kills. if they get away with low health you still did your job, because they have to base and aren't going to be able to defend/attack whatever node they were on or headed too.

the only problem i see with atmogs is you're either building atmas or warmogs first, neither of which adds a whole lot in terms of damage without the other. at least with frozen mallet you have a slow and a small amount of damage to tide you over until you complete the twosome.

i dont really know what we're talking about anymore. i'm sort of just bored.


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frumper

Senior Member

10-27-2011

Quote:
i dont really know what we're talking about anymore. i'm sort of just bored.
Same, since we're derailed I'll continue my thoughts. My first defensive is typically odyn's veil or randuins omen, depending on whether i need armor or mr. On almost all AD's I always get phage, its a cheap item that gives me ad and health, ontop of the prospector's blade that's all the health beef I need once i get odyn's or randuins.

Slow is essential for jungle or point captures for kiting purposes. If someone dives me on my point, I proc slow, then kite them around the turret taking no damage while my turret pounds them. In the jungle the slow allows you to micro your cd's in conjunction with bushes. Proc slow, bush till cd's pop, re engage. Better harrass and poking.

As for why you must compare builds for efficiency and effectiveness, they have different levels of effectiveness during their progression. Add up the stats of warmogs prior to getting it, you're looking at +430, health regen (trash on dom), and +180 health.

What order do you buy them? I'll take my phage over your giants belt giving me the stronger interim build for example. You need to ensure your builds are fluid in strength from early, mid, late game which is why I think its ineffectual to compare a single built item vs another.


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Elealar

Senior Member

10-27-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by frumper View Post
Comparing the defense viability of health to armor and magic is not a linear nor intelligent comparison (apples to oranges bro). I'm sure there's plenty of threads that show the math as to why, but the jist of it is that the value of health increases the more armor/magic you have.
But for the base health and defensive multipliers of all the champions (with the possible exception of Cho'Gath with full Feast stacks and Sion with 400+ CS), extra health tends to be the more efficient first alternative, and further Warmog's gives completely absurd amounts of health for its cost. It's almost twice the second highest amount of health you can get in the game from one item (Frozen Mallet) and it manages to give you significantly more health/gold than Giant's Belt (GB is 0.39 health per gold while Warmog's is 0.46), and any build with Warmog + Armor + MR is going to beat basically any other combination of Health + Armor + MR in effective total HP quite soundly.


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frumper

Senior Member

10-27-2011

Elealar, I feel there's some context issues with your response. OP's post was specifically directly towards AD carries or bruisers IMO. You're talking about a full defensive build which has no context here.

Building Sion, Garen, Nasus, or any AD carry as full defense on dominion is a waste imo because any build with warmogs that also includes armor and mr is basically a full build on dominion (~10k gold). I just don't find it effective on a bruiser to rush any of OP's items mentioned, that's the basis for all my arguments in this thread. I like a sheen, phage, triforce into atmas if i need armor backed up by a odyns veil if I'm not sporting enough mr for example.


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