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Do something to shaco for dominion

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ImCoolerOnline

Senior Member

10-26-2011

Shaco is fine. He is one of the better players in dominion but he cant win it alone.


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Elealar

Senior Member

10-26-2011

Quote:
Argotto:
Problem is that he absolutely sucks as AD in this mode. You lose his aspect of defense that made him so great as AP. Sure you can 'roam' the jungle and pick up a kill here and there, but roaming the mid isn't what you should be spending your time doing at all.

You also lose the ability to poke people on points, because your shiv wont be doing much of anything. You can make all the assumptions you want, but just because you, and a few others who cry on the forums, even though many people have mentioned several counters, doesn't mean what you say will happen.


No, Two-Shiv Poison scales by AD and Boxes' base damage is actually majority of their damage for AP Shaco too. Besides, the thing you most want out of them is the Fear and that's there regardless. What you lose out on is the 3-box death brush; or well, it's less efficient unless you're there.

But on the other hand, you gain:
- Massive benefits to offensive Deceiving (especially with Passive)
- Massively more powerful Ult (the suicide still does a lot of damage but more importantly, it'll just plain kill people now)
- Obviously, the ability to finish off Feared people very easily.

Best Shacos I've seen on this map have been AD. You lose very little and gain so much. AP Shaco is "easy mode"; AD is quite squishy and you want to melee for maximum efficiency so it's a balancing act to play him in order to enter and exit at the right time but a good player on AD Shaco is going to be 10 times the terror AP Shaco is, and even if you negate his Boxes you're still dealing with a Nocturne-level assassin (except shorter distance and CD blink) while if you negate AP Shaco's boxes, he's a very very lite Kassadin (not even half the burst, higher CD blink, no Silence, etc.).


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Stimuz

Senior Member

10-26-2011

Quote:
Argotto:
What would he get in return? The boxes are really all that give him the edge. SR being a good example of him being quite weak compared to other champs even with them; take away that ability for Dominion and he wont even be viable.


I dunno, I always thought his 1.0 ap scaling and 0.5 total AD (including base) scaling on shiv was pretty good. Then I remembered its actually 1.2 ap and .6 ad scaling from behind making it very good.


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Stimuz

Senior Member

10-26-2011

Quote:
Elealar:
No, Two-Shiv Poison scales by AD and Boxes' base damage is actually majority of their damage for AP Shaco too. Besides, the thing you most want out of them is the Fear and that's there regardless. What you lose out on is the 3-box death brush; or well, it's less efficient unless you're there.

But on the other hand, you gain:
- Massive benefits to offensive Deceiving (especially with Passive)
- Massively more powerful Ult (the suicide still does a lot of damage but more importantly, it'll just plain kill people now)
- Obviously, the ability to finish off Feared people very easily.

Best Shacos I've seen on this map have been AD. You lose very little and gain so much. AP Shaco is "easy mode"; AD is quite squishy and you want to melee for maximum efficiency so it's a balancing act to play him in order to enter and exit at the right time but a good player on AD Shaco is going to be 10 times the terror AP Shaco is, and even if you negate his Boxes you're still dealing with a Nocturne-level assassin (except shorter distance and CD blink) while if you negate AP Shaco's boxes, he's a very very lite Kassadin (not even half the burst, higher CD blink, no Silence, etc.).


AD shaco is scary early game because of the deceive + shiv burst being able to take most champs to half or less in the first fight. Late game AP shaco just grabs a lichbane and does the same thing, cept 800 damage deceive and 900+ damage shiv is more than AD could ever hope for late game.


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Argotto

Senior Member

10-26-2011

Quote:
Elealar:
No, Two-Shiv Poison scales by AD and Boxes' base damage is actually majority of their damage for AP Shaco too. Besides, the thing you most want out of them is the Fear and that's there regardless. What you lose out on is the 3-box death brush; or well, it's less efficient unless you're there.

But on the other hand, you gain:
- Massive benefits to offensive Deceiving (especially with Passive)
- Massively more powerful Ult (the suicide still does a lot of damage but more importantly, it'll just plain kill people now)
- Obviously, the ability to finish off Feared people very easily.

Best Shacos I've seen on this map have been AD. You lose very little and gain so much. AP Shaco is "easy mode"; AD is quite squishy and you want to melee for maximum efficiency so it's a balancing act to play him in order to enter and exit at the right time but a good player on AD Shaco is going to be 10 times the terror AP Shaco is, and even if you negate his Boxes you're still dealing with a Nocturne-level assassin (except shorter distance and CD blink) while if you negate AP Shaco's boxes, he's a very very lite Kassadin (not even half the burst, higher CD blink, no Silence, etc.).


I suppose I need to practice more as AD then. I do agree that AD takes more skill than AP in this mode, that is for sure.

Either way, I see no reason to nerf his boxes because of AP, which was what I was trying to convey.


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Argotto

Senior Member

10-26-2011

Quote:
Stimuz:
I dunno, I always thought his 1.0 ap scaling and 0.5 total AD (including base) scaling on shiv was pretty good. Then I remembered its actually 1.2 ap and .6 ad scaling from behind making it very good.


Well, would you pick shaco over another AP caster just because of shiv? Its a great ability, but does not bring him up to par (damage wise) with other AP champs alone.


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Stimuz

Senior Member

10-26-2011

Quote:
Argotto:
Well, would you pick shaco over another AP caster just because of shiv? Its a great ability, but does not bring him up to par (damage wise) with other AP champs alone.


Would limiting JITB to 3 remove it from the game? By the way, which AP casters are you talking about? Ryze is the only one that comes to mind.


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Elealar

Senior Member

10-26-2011

Quote:
Stimuz:
AD shaco is scary early game because of the deceive + shiv burst being able to take most champs to half or less in the first fight. Late game AP shaco just grabs a lichbane and does the same thing, cept 800 damage deceive and 900+ damage shiv is more than AD could ever hope for late game.


AD however does iterative attacks and his clone does ****loads too so it doesn't take many seconds for him to exceed AP Shaco's damage even lategame. There's a reason you want AD carries in SR teams after all; they deal the largest amounts of sustained damage in the game while AP types deal larger burst damage.

AD Shaco has massive sustained damage in addition to reasonable burst, while AP Shaco has superior burst but no sustained damage. Criticals are the big thing that keeps AD Shaco up there (and obviously, you have Sheen procs too tho they aren't that big). Lichbane + 1 damage spell is still rather low far as damage spectrum goes, compared to AD Shaco or other Lichbane users, even if the spell's AP ratio is 1.0.


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Argotto

Senior Member

10-26-2011

Quote:
Stimuz:
Would limiting JITB to 3 remove it from the game? By the way, which AP casters are you talking about? Ryze is the only one that comes to mind.


Limiting boxes to 3 would pretty much make him a near worthless defender, because he already has the handicap of not being able to stop minion waves very well. It might as well just be removed in that case and just have them buff every other move he has.

Also, ryze, cass, leblanc, kass also being an assassin type ap caster, lux, morg, and swain are all quite viable in this mode. Even anivia and veiger have their place if played correctly.


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Stimuz

Senior Member

10-26-2011

Quote:
Elealar:
No, Two-Shiv Poison scales by AD and Boxes' base damage is actually majority of their damage for AP Shaco too. Besides, the thing you most want out of them is the Fear and that's there regardless. What you lose out on is the 3-box death brush; or well, it's less efficient unless you're there.

But on the other hand, you gain:
- Massive benefits to offensive Deceiving (especially with Passive)
- Massively more powerful Ult (the suicide still does a lot of damage but more importantly, it'll just plain kill people now)
- Obviously, the ability to finish off Feared people very easily.

Best Shacos I've seen on this map have been AD. You lose very little and gain so much. AP Shaco is "easy mode"; AD is quite squishy and you want to melee for maximum efficiency so it's a balancing act to play him in order to enter and exit at the right time but a good player on AD Shaco is going to be 10 times the terror AP Shaco is, and even if you negate his Boxes you're still dealing with a Nocturne-level assassin (except shorter distance and CD blink) while if you negate AP Shaco's boxes, he's a very very lite Kassadin (not even half the burst, higher CD blink, no Silence, etc.).


So much misinformation in this post.

2-shiv = 1.0 ap scaling 0.5 ad scaling. Never seen someone break 350 AD without an ability that buffs it so yeah AD scaling is mostly negligible. I say mostly because it does scale off your BASE damage and not just bonus and that just makes rank 1 shiv that much sweeter for AP.

AD does have a massive deceive advantage until AP shaco buys a lichbane, then AD shaco only has an autoattack advantage.

AP shaco's intended disadvantage vs AD shaco is the fact that he CANNOT FARM he is perhaps the worst farmer in the game, his entire income is based off enemy kills. Problem is, you don't have to farm in dom.