Tf needs a buff

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PrestoWILLIAM

Junior Member

10-27-2011

To address some of the developing issues, yes I do have runes and of course I play with them at all times!

As for building Q, that's not something AD TF does...at all - which, if you haven't noticed, is the TF I play - as AD Fate relies heavily on auto attacks and Stacked Deck so that he can slow and stun for free auto attacks.

Honestly, TheCrushinator, it sounds like you play against bots. That, or you pair yourself with the carry on your team and steal his kills...however, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about my experience in mid with an equally as challenging competitor and how absolutely out-laned I got regardless of how well I was playing based on character stats, a doran's blade, and runes.

I agree, in a lane with someone who can take down health bars with one ability, Twisted Fate will do well enough that he can survive, but pit yourself 1v1 against almost any champion in the game, and you're going to lose in those early levels...

Fun facts:

Twisted Fate's level 1 base stats sans masteries or runes:
AD - 50
AP - 0
AS - .651
MS - 305
AR - 14
MR - 30
Health - 466
Mana - 240
Range - 510

Veigar's level 1 base stats sans masteries or runes:
AD - 51
AP - 0
AS - .625
MS - 315
AR - 16
MR - 30
Health - 437
Mana - 305
Range - 525

Ashe's level 1 base stats sans masteries or runes:
AD - 49
AP - 0
AS - .658
MS - 300
AR - 13
MR - 30
Health - 438
Mana - 200
Range - 600
Crit Chance - 100%

Ezreal's level 1 base stats sans masteries or runes:
AD - 50
AP - 0
AS - .665
MS - 305
AR - 16
MR - 30
Health - 430
Mana - 280
Range - 550

Considering the range of the other champions - with the exception of maybe Veigar - I would have to move up in order to hit them and this, combined with TF's terrible movement speed, would warrant another free auto attack before I even got close enough to hit them once. That's 80-100 damage to my zero. At that point, I have two choices: I can run away and get hit again - putting me at 120-150 damage - or I can stay there and trade blows 80-100 damage down and see if I squeak by with enough health to kill them when it's all said and done. Put simply, even though TF's AD is 10 higher base-wise, it's not enough to make up 80-100 damage, especially with the enemy champion hitting me faster than I can hit them - and let's not even start with the opposing player being smart enough to move back while I try to move up.

Factor in that two of TF's abilities activate via his auto-attack range - Stacked Deck and Pick A Card - one has a decent amount of distance but can be dodged easily - Wild Card - and the other is a no-damage ult - though still very useful - TF comes up short in almost every fight and there really is no way to argue that.


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bylobog44

Senior Member

10-27-2011

I've been experimenting with different builds for TF to make DPS TF stronger.

The biggest problem with AD TF is that his basic attack range is one of the shortest in the game (actually, I think Sivir has the dubious honor, but still). AD TF puts out a tremendous amount of damage, but he has to get almost to melee range to do so. So maybe it's possible to build him with pure damage from items and pure survivability from runes and masteries?

This is counter to most guides - which for AD Carries eschew robustness and go heavily on offense for runes and masteries. Biggest problem for this (these) builds is a lack of mana regen early game - so will have to rely on Blue Card and use Wild Cards sparingly.

Here is my current attempt.

Runes:

  • Greater Quintessence of Fortitude (+26 Flat Health) x3
  • Greater Mark of Warding (+0.97 magic resistance) x9
  • Greater Seal of Resilience (+1.41 Armor) x9
  • Greater Glyph of Warding (+1.49 magic resistance) x9

Masteries
  • Offense: 1 (Improved Exhaust)
  • Defense: 21 (veterans scars, ardor and tenacity_
  • Utility: 8 (awareness and expanded mind)
Total from Runes = 78 HP, 22.14 MR and 12.69 Armor.
Total from Masteries = 48 HP, 6 MR and 6 Armor. (plus Harden Skin and Tenacity).
Total: 126 HP, 28 MR, 18 AR.

Summoner's Spells
Flash + Exhaust - both of these can be used for either offense or defense.

Now - just build a mostly glass cannon TF with Merc Treads for Tenacity and some late game survivability.

Items
Option 1. Merc Treads, Trinity Force, Sword of the Devine, Phantom Dancer, Wit's End.
- alternative to Wit's End for purely physical teams = Atma's Impaler.
Option 2. Merc Treads, Blood Thirster, Sword of the Devine, Phantom Dancer, Banshee's Veil.
- alternative to Banshee's Veil for purely physical teams = Atma's Impaler.


Theoretically anyways, either way should work. You end up (depending on option) with between 2200 and 2300 HP. around 83 armor and 131 magic resist (or if you go with the Atmas, 127 AR and 84 MR).

Damage output is pretty good. Option 1 gives about 2300 damage / 5 seconds (not including SotD passive), while Option 2 gives about 2400 damage. Option 2 has about 600 life steal / 5 seconds.


I've tested this approach in half a dozen games with Intermediate Bots, and it works at that level (but I haven't been able to finish the build before the win). I am about to start trying it in Normal games.


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PrestoWILLIAM

Junior Member

10-27-2011

Funny enough, I already use those runes - but I sub Armor Pen. reds for your MR reds - so I sit pretty at the beginning of the game with 560(ish) health, 30(ish) AR and 30 MR.

My build is as follows:
Doran's blade (Putting me at 70 AD, 660(ish) health and giving me a touch of life steal) > Beserker's Greaves>Sword of the Divine>Infinity Edge>Frozen Mallet>Phantom Dancer>Last Whisper.

I don't have any worries after I start building the Sword of the Divine, but it's getting to that point where I think TF has the most problems.


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bylobog44

Senior Member

10-27-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrestoWILLIAM View Post
Funny enough, I already use those runes - but I sub Armor Pen. reds for your MR reds - so I sit pretty at the beginning of the game with 560(ish) health, 30(ish) AR and 30 MR.

My build is as follows:
Doran's blade (Putting me at 70 AD, 660(ish) health and giving me a touch of life steal) > Beserker's Greaves>Sword of the Divine>Infinity Edge>Frozen Mallet>Phantom Dancer>Last Whisper.

I don't have any worries after I start building the Sword of the Divine, but it's getting to that point where I think TF has the most problems.
Cool - glad I'm not the only one thinking along these lines.

It's kind of like the Atmog's Sivir - except you get damage from items and survivability from runes and masteries. In either case, it makes up for pathetic attack range.

Early game - I try a couple of levels in Wild Cards early (even with no AP) because it allows me to poke at a would be harassers' health.


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PrestoWILLIAM

Junior Member

10-28-2011

This topic must be bumped for maximum viewability!

Discuss, discuss, discuss!


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OST

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Member

10-30-2011

Yeah they really need to buff him early game...


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PrestoWILLIAM

Junior Member

11-05-2011

I edited the information above because TF starts with 50 AD not 60.

Played a ranked game with a hybrid TF and though it seemed like he knew how to play him well - always pulled the right card, aimed his wild cards well, set up great ganks and initiations with his ult - when I checked early game, he was 1/5/5. When I checked late game, he was somewhere around 6/10/11.

I've found that it's like this in almost every game I play with a TF - even if I am playing him - and I don't think it's fair to have a great late game and a less than terrible early game. Especially when it's not easy to recover. Even if you are going 1/2 early game, chances are you finish the game going even or with one more kill than death.

It's absurd! And while I play him in Normal games all of the time, I would never play him in Ranked. In a video game based on balance, that doesn't exactly make sense. If a character is forgotten/ignored/skipped over during ranked draft because people think he's THAT bad, doesn't it mean something about the game isn't right?


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