Dominion Respawn Explained

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frumper

Senior Member

10-21-2011

Quote:
I find it depressing that you treat "the losing team has a hard time gaining ground" as a bad thing. The initial windmill fight should be important, taking a point should feel rewarding, losing a point should feel demoralizing. With Dominion as is I never feel like anything is important, it's all one big, mindless zergfest with no rhythm or rhyme.
If the initial windmill fight is a major factor in victory or defeat, this would schew the game mode too heavily against champions that are ult or end game reliant.

We're talking about a 1 second penalty if you win windmill on initial respawn.....


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SentinelOfPain

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Senior Member

10-21-2011

This is a very well thought out, complex system... that is fundamentally wrong.

If you want the more skilled team to win, do not mess with the spawn times in any special way. By giving the other team an advantage, even of four seconds, you make the losing team have an advantage. Any handicap you give to the losing team reduces the importance of skill.

There is a difference between balance and keeping things fair. Currently, spawn times are unfair and for many, slow the game down. The game does not need to end with a 15-0 score to be fun.

I would also like to point out that wave spawning is an interesting, but unnecessary concept. If you want to unleash your team as a wave, plan it out. This form of spawning is very limited in my opinion.


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Xyltin

Senior Member

10-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brackhar View Post
I agree this is a potential flaw. I'm considering proposing we floor the calculation for differences of team scores to guarantee close games end up even. That way you're always treated as having a, say, 75 health nexus even if your score is 1 so that really close games at the end do have a game with no respawn adjustments.
under 25 points difference, there should be no change.
25-74 +2/-2
75-124 +3/-3
125+ +4/-4 (cap)

When you have an advantage from this system and your team take over 100 points with having no point minority in that time, the adjustments will get changed by +1/-1 to your teams disadvantage.
So when you have -4 and the enemy +4 and you are taking 100 points while holding always 2-2 and 3-2 points, it will change to -3 for your and to +3 for the enemies team till the enemy takes at least for one sec more points than your team has (at that time the adjustments will return to normal).
If you are already at 0/0, there will be no change. Also when your team is at +3 and the enemies at -3, it won't change to +4/-4 (means it should only go for the team that holds more points to a lower advantage and never to a higher disadvantage; it will only go closer to the 0 adjustment and never away from it).

This system works against the worse team if they hold points for a long time. It's ok to get back slowly into the game, but to have such a long advantage when the enemy is ahead for over 250 points is a little unfair to this team, cause they played better early game. So the advantage of the worse team will shrink faster when the better team can't find back into the game cause of their disadvantage.


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Brackhar

Features Designer

10-21-2011
5 of 11 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by InsanityPotion View Post
Brackhar - To put this as succinctly as I can: Why do you feel the need to punish success and reward failure? I don't give a kid who's failing my calculus class a 10 point curve to try and bring him up, and the A students a 10 point deduction to try bring them down. Why do you insist on mechanics that are counter-intuitive to an accurate measure of skill?
The goal is not to punish success or reward failure. This is why we don't have systems like the losing teams capture points faster or flatly get more gold from kills. The goal is to simulate an important balancing mechanic from Summoner's Rift, the time it takes to reinforce a point, on a map that was designed to have short travel times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frumper View Post
Have you considered turning off the system once both teams have reached the point that champion kills no longer reduce nexus health? Seems like this would result in the desired result.
That's basically what I said in the post you quoted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LethalityVoX View Post
A few points I'd like to address-

1. "after adding the system we also saw that unmatched teams were basically unaffected and still stomped games just as well as they did before" so you admit that, assuming this is true, the entire respawn adjustment system is just smoke and mirrors which serves to waste the time of the winning team and instill a false sense of accomplishment/competence in the losing team?
No, what I am saying is that before the respawn system was added it was too easy to hold onto 3 points and defend them, so much so that even for evenly matched games the gameplay stagnated. This resulted in final scores that were not reflective of the skill of the players, and ultimately a game with very few point turnovers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LethalityVoX View Post
2. I find that in a solo queue environment taking an early lead = loss 9/10, I'm not a fan of handicaps in general but why do you base the respawn modification off Nexus health? Why don't you base it off who currently has the most points?
We tried that, but it created a bit too much unreliability in terms of respawn times. Players didn't have a good handle on the flow of the map with that system. It was the first thing we attempted though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LethalityVoX View Post
You have to understand that to a lot of us this system seems like it just punishes the superior team for doing well, probably because it does. You might not intend for it to be that way, but that's how it ends up being in practice.

My biggest concern is how this system pretty much makes competitive/ranked Dominion dead on arrival; none of the pros are taking the game mode seriously, and many of them have cited the respawn system as a major negative.

I find it depressing that you treat "the losing team has a hard time gaining ground" as a bad thing. The initial windmill fight should be important, taking a point should feel rewarding, losing a point should feel demoralizing. With Dominion as is I never feel like anything is important, it's all one big, mindless zergfest with no rhythm or rhyme.

Riot, I know it may not be popular with some of the casual players, but the right thing to do is make this slope a neutral slope and simply allow the better team to win. Until this happens ranked Dom is going to be a bad joke and competitive Dom will be nonexistent due to complete lack of interest.
Losing windmill should be important, but it should not decide the game. We wanted Dominion to have a great deal of back and forth, and the implementation that had no respawn adjustments was ultimately stagnant. As I said though, we're continuing to iterate on this system as things move forward and feedback like yours is welcome.


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LethalityVoX

Senior Member

10-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by frumper View Post
If the initial windmill fight is a major factor in victory or defeat, this would schew the game mode too heavily against champions that are ult or end game reliant.

We're talking about a 1 second penalty if you win windmill on initial respawn.....
OK, if a 1 second penalty is irrelevant then so is the 1 second advantage, so the safe bet is to just remove the system entirely.

You should never, EVER, under any circumstances feel punished for doing well. Losing the first windmill fight should be something you want to avoid at all costs. Now, you have 500 to turn it around, but yeah you're at a disadvantage. Because you lost. Because you got outplayed. Since the other team did better at that initial engagement they're rewarded with an initial advantage and you are consequentially punished with an initial disadvantage.

Thing is, that's a good thing. Victories should be rewarded, defeats should be punished, they both feel meaningful that way. As is, they don't, and that's a problem. You know, I can't think of a single game other than LoL that does this. The losing team doesn't get bonus points in Arathi basin, the losing team doesnt get more points for kills in... any FPS I can think of. The losing team doesn't score additional points for touchdowns in the NFL. The losing team doesn't get double gold for towers in SR. There's a reason for this, because it would be stupid if they did.

It's not any less stupid here, and the only reason that isn't blatantly obvious is because it's all we know, we've never gotten to see an incarnation of Dominion where both teams were on equal footing beginning to end, and may the best team win.

Thing is, I know if I'm having fun or not, and I don't have fun with Dominion. It's just a big time waster with zero competitive potential because like always Riot is terrified of implying that some players are better than others and they deserve to win. Same reason Riot allows people to play ranked with as little as four champions, same reason we still don't have six bans in ranked.


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LethalityVoX

Senior Member

10-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brackhar View Post
Losing windmill should be important, but it should not decide the game. We wanted Dominion to have a great deal of back and forth, and the implementation that had no respawn adjustments was ultimately stagnant. As I said though, we're continuing to iterate on this system as things move forward and feedback like yours is welcome.
I never said it should decide the game, I just said that winning that initial fight should feel meaningful. As of right now it doesn't. As of right now I never really know if I'm doing well or not. As of right now everything feels very random, spontaneous, and mindless.

If I may offer an anecdote? I realize I'm just a bronze player, but I have couple platinum players on my friends list, and they all have one thing in common: they REFUSE to play Dominion. Will not, under any circumstances, play it. I'll see if I can get one to post in this thread to offer his thoughts on the game mode, but in the meantime feel free to check the match histories of some big name players, or better yet see if you can find anyone on this http://www.solomid.net/streams.php list playing Dominion. Notice a trend? When there's a negative correlation between ranked Elo and and interest in Dominion that should tell you something is amiss.


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MrSpaz

Senior Member

10-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brackhar View Post
That'd be pretty OP imo.
What if the bonus were split evenly to everyone spawning during that wave?

For example, taking the 10% mastery:

- Four champions are going to spawn in the wave. One of them has -10%, so, all four champions have -2.5%.

- Two champions are going to spawn in the wave. Both of them have -10%, so, both of them have -10%. (duh!)

- Three champions are going to spawn in the wave. Two champions have -10%, so, each champion has (2 * 10/3), or -6.66% chance.

The differences between how it is now and how this would be are a second or two at the most, zero seconds at the least (when everyone is using the mastery), and that's more in line with champions spawning at exactly the same time, no?


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Seņor Pancho

Senior Member

10-21-2011

wow i tought the system was ****ed, but never THAT much.

basically, if you are "lucky" and die at the right time, you will catch the respawn wave and rez in 14 secs instead of 26? how is this not dumb? you want the players to rez together, i get that, but at the same time, someone who tries his best to hold on as long as he can and miss the wave by 1 sec is "punished" ?

i dunno what to say. maybe i misread your post, correct me if im wrong, but **** man that seems just wrong.

edit: rez in 14 sec instead of 12


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Miles Long

Senior Member

10-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brackhar View Post
The goal is not to punish success or reward failure. This is why we don't have systems like the losing teams capture points faster or flatly get more gold from kills. The goal is to simulate an important balancing mechanic from Summoner's Rift, the time it takes to reinforce a point, on a map that was designed to have short travel times.

Losing windmill should be important, but it should not decide the game. We wanted Dominion to have a great deal of back and forth, and the implementation that had no respawn adjustments was ultimately stagnant.
Fscking owned. Thank you, Brackhar. +1

Deal with it, foolish naysayers.


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monkeyswinkle

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Member

10-21-2011

To clarify the effects of Good Hands, Quints of Revival, etc., is this how the respawn timing would work? Let's say A, B, and C are all on the same team. A and B have 3 points of Good Hands, for -10% time dead, but C does not. A dies first, and B and C both die within the window. Since A died first, his respawn would be set to 23.4 seconds because of Good Hands (26 * 0.9)? Then, since B and C died within the window, C would spawn at the same time as A (23.4 seconds after A died), but B would spawn sooner (21.06 seconds after A died, or 23.4 * 0.9)?


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