Dominion Respawn Explained

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IS131c7cb285e774

Member

10-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brackhar View Post
Death reduction
Abilities and runes that reduce your time dead, such as the good hands mastery, simply reduce your assigned respawn time. This does mean that it can break the intent of the respawn system, which is to have you respawn together, but we felt this was the lesser evil than making runes you purchase have no effect at all. I'd be interested in a better solution.
I would suggest to make the "time-spent dead" runes and the Good Hands mastery to have a Dominion-only effect of giving a short movement speed buff while reviving, similar to the "Revive" summoner's spell effect on respawn, deleting the time reduction itself. Those dominion-only effect could modify the duration or the magnitude of that movement speed buff.
I think that would give a better feel to the respawn mechanism and overall utility of the runes/mastery.


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coffeerox

Senior Member

10-21-2011

What i've gotten from this is: If you are in the lead, it is very important to stay alive, as each death will have a significant impact. Two, I'm gonna go buy some reduced death timer runes


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Brackhar

Features Designer

10-21-2011
3 of 11 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugs From Momma View Post
On the death time reduction runes / masteries: could a player's timer reductions affect everyone spawning in that wave? Could the game use just the highest value among all spawning champs and apply that to everyone?

It might make the -5% time dead quints attractive to stack them with Good Hands.
That'd be pretty OP imo.


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nguyenmb

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Member

10-21-2011

I've had a game where we were in a 300 point lead, lost one team battle, got 5-capped, and lost because we kept on rezzing later than them even though they had to run all the way to our closest points.

This type of game feels really bad. You spend 13-15 minutes doing really well, to lose the whole thing in 2 minutes, because you had one bad team fight. A team fight we lost because of the inherent attrition caused by trading 1-1 (since we had worse rez timers, trading deaths causees greater attrition to the higher score point team).

Why even try to win early game? The hardest games for me to win are the ones where we start with a 200 point lead.

Note that when the losing team starts becoming the winning team, the new losing team doesn't gain the same advantage as the previous losing team in the extreme case. Suppose the losing team changes the tides with only 1 point left. There is at no point for the rest of the game that the other team gains a rez advantage. The winning team has to some how 3 cap with a handicap for the rest of the game.


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Hugs From Momma

Senior Member

10-21-2011

The more I think on this, the more I dislike the whole basic concept. Penalizing players (making them take longer to respawn) when they get ahead just seems like the wrong approach. There's got to be a way to promote point captures and action that is less punitive.

These sort of bounceback mechanics are what make super-carries such a problem on Dominion. You can lose for 15 minutes and get tons of farm passively. Then when you have a nice, low death timer, you just unleash.


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Brackhar

Features Designer

10-21-2011
4 of 11 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by nguyenmb View Post
I've had a game where we were in a 300 point lead, lost one team battle, got 5-capped, and lost because we kept on rezzing later than them even though they had to run all the way to our closest points.

This type of game feels really bad. You spend 13-15 minutes doing really well, to lose the whole thing in 2 minutes, because you had one bad team fight. A team fight we lost because of the inherent attrition caused by trading 1-1 (since we had worse rez timers, trading deaths causees greater attrition to the higher score point team).

Why even try to win early game? The hardest games for me to win are the ones where we start with a 200 point lead.

Note that when the losing team starts becoming the winning team, the new losing team doesn't gain the same advantage as the previous losing team in the extreme case. Suppose the losing team changes the tides with only 1 point left. There is at no point for the rest of the game that the other team gains a rez advantage. The winning team has to some how 3 cap with a handicap for the rest of the game.
I agree this is a potential flaw. I'm considering proposing we floor the calculation for differences of team scores to guarantee close games end up even. That way you're always treated as having a, say, 75 health nexus even if your score is 1 so that really close games at the end do have a game with no respawn adjustments.


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InsanityPotion

Senior Member

10-21-2011

Brackhar - To put this as succinctly as I can: Why do you feel the need to punish success and reward failure? I don't give a kid who's failing my calculus class a 10 point curve to try and bring him up, and the A students a 10 point deduction to try bring them down. Why do you insist on mechanics that are counter-intuitive to an accurate measure of skill?


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Birdy51

Senior Member

10-21-2011

I would like to request lower respawn timers for teams without a 5th member. The last match I had was lost due to a late game leaver. Up until that point, we had been winning handily, if not dominating. It was horrible that simply because our lost ally we could no longer compete. We went from 3-2 capping them, to their team having a nigh constant 1-4 capping, often times sneaking in a 5 cap. We could not even protect our nearest crystals from assault.

I understand that these changes do help to make games a little more balanced, but the system becomes broken if a situation like I decribed happens.


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frumper

Senior Member

10-21-2011

Quote:
I'm considering proposing we floor the calculation for differences of team scores to guarantee close games end up even. That way you're always treated as having a, say, 75 health nexus even if your score is 1 so that really close games at the end do have a game with no respawn adjustments.
Have you considered turning off the system once both teams have reached the point that champion kills no longer reduce nexus health? Seems like this would result in the desired result.


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LethalityVoX

Senior Member

10-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brackhar View Post
Hey guys, there's been a lot of confusion related to how respawning in Dominion works, so I wanted to take some time and write up a clear explanation for you along with answer any questions you may have. Being transparent about what's going on under the hood should hopefully help guide the conversation in a productive way, as the feedback you guys provide is important for us to decide how to move forward on almost any balance adjustment.

As a note before we dive in, the numbers I'm providing here are current as of 10/21/11 on Live.

Base System:

Spawning in Dominion is based off of the idea of a wave spawning system. Early on in development we found that Dominion was much more fun when you would respawn with your allies and leave base together, so we wanted to create a system that tended towards that where possible. The two important concepts to understand about the wave spawn system are the minimum respawn time and the respawn window size.

Minimum respawn time: This is the time that, when no respawn wave is active for that team, it will take the person who died to respawn. In Dominion this value defaults to 26 seconds at all levels.

Respawn window size: When someone dies on a team, if no respawn window is active, a new respawn window will be created of the size specified by this variable. Currently in Dominion this value is set to 12 seconds. When a respawn window is created fora team, anyone who dies during this period will have their respawn time set to the same time as the person who opened the window.

Example: Imagine that three people die in a row at a team, one at 0:00, one at 0:10, and one at 0:20. When the first person dies no respawn window is open, so he will open a respawn window of 12 seconds and his respawn time will be set to the minimum, 26 seconds. When the second player dies at 0:10, he falls within the respawn window opened by the first champion, so instead of having his respawn time set to the minimum he will have it set to the same time as the first champion who died. At 0:12 the respawn window closes. The next champion who dies at 0:20 is outside of the respawn window, so she gets a minimum respawn time of 26 seconds and opens a new window. At 0:26 both the first and the second champion respawn. At 0:32 the second respawn window closes, and then at 0:46 the third champion respawns.

Ongoing adjustments:

As we played around with this system we found that, because of our decision to go with a smaller map, it was very difficult for the team with fewer capture points to get a strong positional advantage on the winning team after winning a major encounter like happens on Summoner's Rift, and furthermore it was very easy for the winning team to continually reinforce points in a way that assured they could cap and continually hold three points. We needed a mechanism to simulate the sense of being "deep into enemy territory" that can happen in Summoner's Rift, where for the winning team it takes longer to reinforce after any particular defeat and when the winning team gets aced it can be an incredible setback. As such we felt the best way to accomplish this was by adjusting the respawn times of both teams based on the difference in nexus health, effectively adjusting the amount of time it takes to reinforce any given location on the map. The respawn adjustments work as follows.

When one team in Dominion gets a lead in nexus health on the opposing team, the leading team has their respawn time increased by two seconds. By the same token, the losing team has their minimum respawn time reduced by 2 seconds. If the lead increases to 50 nexus health the spread increases to +3/-3 seconds, and after a 100 point lead the spread increases again to +4/-4. No additional adjustments occur after this point regardless of the point spread in the two teams. To counteract the fact that increasing the minimum respawn time can cause the winning team to be more likely to respawn outside of a window, we increase the size of the window for the winning team by half of the amount we increase the minimum respawn time. So holistically this means that the respawn adjustments range from (+2:+1)/(-2:-0) to (+4:+2)/(-4:-0) as the lead increases from 1 nexus health to 100 nexus health. When we launched we had the range set to +5/-5, but we reduced it to +4/-4 two patches ago.

Death reduction
Abilities and runes that reduce your time dead, such as the good hands mastery, simply reduce your assigned respawn time. This does mean that it can break the intent of the respawn system, which is to have you respawn together, but we felt this was the lesser evil than making runes you purchase have no effect at all. I'd be interested in a better solution.

Conclusion:
Overall we have found this system to have a drastic benefit to the game compared to when we used a traditional static respawn time, both in allowing players to respawn together and also destabilizing the 3 and hold strategy. Without this system in place evenly matched teams would regularly end up in 300-400 point leads when the game ended and the overall number of captures and point turnovers was much lower. Conversely, after adding the system we also saw that unmatched teams were basically unaffected and still stomped games just as well as they did before.

Figuring out the proper configuration for how respawn should work in Dominion was a large challenge for us over the course of the project and is something we're still working to refine. Anyway, I hope this helps clear things up for you guys! Feel free to ask questions or give feedback and I'll try to answer as best I can.
A few points I'd like to address-

1. "after adding the system we also saw that unmatched teams were basically unaffected and still stomped games just as well as they did before" so you admit that, assuming this is true, the entire respawn adjustment system is just smoke and mirrors which serves to waste the time of the winning team and instill a false sense of accomplishment/competence in the losing team?

2. I find that in a solo queue environment taking an early lead = loss 9/10, I'm not a fan of handicaps in general but why do you base the respawn modification off Nexus health? Why don't you base it off who currently has the most points?

You have to understand that to a lot of us this system seems like it just punishes the superior team for doing well, probably because it does. You might not intend for it to be that way, but that's how it ends up being in practice.

My biggest concern is how this system pretty much makes competitive/ranked Dominion dead on arrival; none of the pros are taking the game mode seriously, and many of them have cited the respawn system as a major negative.

I find it depressing that you treat "the losing team has a hard time gaining ground" as a bad thing. The initial windmill fight should be important, taking a point should feel rewarding, losing a point should feel demoralizing. With Dominion as is I never feel like anything is important, it's all one big, mindless zergfest with no rhythm or rhyme.

Riot, I know it may not be popular with some of the casual players, but the right thing to do is make this slope a neutral slope and simply allow the better team to win. Until this happens ranked Dom is going to be a bad joke and competitive Dom will be nonexistent due to complete lack of interest.


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