Are some supports in Dominion viable?

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KommunistKevin

Senior Member

10-22-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuryaka View Post
Basically: No heals. Support fire ERRYTHING.

You're not a healer. Supports aren't really healers now anyway. You are a mage with AOE, massive auras, and DPS boosts to your team.
Not a healer? Congrats you are fighting with 3 skills instead of 4

AOE skills almost always will do less damage over time than single target

massive auras are no benefit unless you have 2 or more teammates around you

ZOMG one time i went 28/0 as Sona against a team of lux/ashe/vlad/veigar does not mean viable


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Elealar

Senior Member

10-22-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by KommunistKevin View Post
Played 300 games of dominion

There is no reason to take a support over another tanky dps/assassin/super defender

Supports can do well against bad teams
Umm, except supports have different sets of abilities that no other champion replicates and there are no strictly better options? If anything, supporting champions do better in stronger teams; the more useful your allies are, the more powerful auras and boost abilities on them are.

Some of the supports are absolutely godlike; Zilean is probably top 3 champion on the map being supermobile, probably the best defender, decent pusher, good attacker and incredibly useful for the team (level 6 for Windmill, slow/speed & revive). Janna is incredible with the speed aura, good offensive spells and total resets. Tanky Soraka is like Singed except she can also heal allies, has hard CC and MR reduction on her "poison". And Sona has obscene damage with very little work and superstrong auras.


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KommunistKevin

Senior Member

10-22-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elealar View Post
Umm, except supports have different sets of abilities that no other champion replicates and there are no strictly better options? If anything, supporting champions do better in stronger teams; the more useful your allies are, the more powerful auras and boost abilities on them are.

Some of the supports are absolutely godlike; Zilean is probably top 3 champion on the map being supermobile, probably the best defender, decent pusher, good attacker and incredibly useful for the team (level 6 for Windmill, slow/speed & revive). Janna is incredible with the speed aura, good offensive spells and total resets. Tanky Soraka is like Singed except she can also heal allies, has hard CC and MR reduction on her "poison". And Sona has obscene damage with very little work and superstrong auras.
Lets look at it this way

Support 1v1 a tanky derps, tanky derps wins

tanky derps + support fight 2v2 vs two tanky derps, tanky-derps wins

Sure you can run away but running away doesn't win dom games, and i think that everyone is in agreement that backcapping doesn't work when the enemy team defends 3


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Elealar

Senior Member

10-22-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by KommunistKevin View Post
Lets look at it this way

Support 1v1 a tanky derps, tanky derps wins

tanky derps + support fight 2v2 vs two tanky derps, tanky-derps wins

Sure you can run away but running away doesn't win dom games, and i think that everyone is in agreement that backcapping doesn't work when the enemy team defends 3
Depends on the support and the tanky DPS. First of all, e.g. Sona, Zilean or Janna can kite and beat most Tanky DPS 1v1. Second, Tanky DPS + Support vs. 2 Tanky DPS is almost always won by Tanky DPS + Support but it depends on the exact Tanky DPS types. Third, Supports are far better defenders than Tanky DPS as a rule. And yeah, Zilean + any Tanky DPS is a godlike combo.

I think you're simply building/playing supports wrong or seeing them played wrong. I tend to win 70-80% of my games with Sona, Janna, Zile & Soraka (Zile a bit more but he's admittedly overpowered). Just for reference:
http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/6...onsupport1.png


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KommunistKevin

Senior Member

10-22-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elealar View Post
Depends on the support and the tanky DPS. First of all, e.g. Sona, Zilean or Janna can kite and beat most Tanky DPS 1v1. Second, Tanky DPS + Support vs. 2 Tanky DPS is almost always won by Tanky DPS + Support but it depends on the exact Tanky DPS types. Third, Supports are far better defenders than Tanky DPS as a rule. And yeah, Zilean + any Tanky DPS is a godlike combo.

I think you're simply building/playing supports wrong or seeing them played wrong. I tend to win 70-80% of my games with Sona, Janna, Zile & Soraka (Zile a bit more but he's admittedly overpowered). Just for reference:
http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/6...onsupport1.png
Sona/Zilean/Janna

Janna Zephyr range = 600

Zilean bomb range = 700

Sona range = 700

Now lets look at tanky dps gap closers

xin zhao audacious charge = 650

Irelia blade surge = 650

Jax leap strike = 700

Akali shadow dash = 800

Pantheon Aegis = 600

Talon cutthroat = 700

Wukong = 625

What does this mean? If you get into range to land ANY of your abilities due to casting animation most of the tanky dps cannot be kited other than panth/wukong

They will gap closer you and you die

And supports are NOT good defenders, There is little Sona can do against say Jax who will dive her and kill her and then cap the tower.

A tanky dps as a rule will always require at LEAST two people to take a tower from them since they can beat any champion 1 v 1. They are the most powerful defenders in the game since they are NOT limited to standing on the tower itself and so can push the lane freely to prevent someone from taking the tower by minions.

If support builds glasscannon in a 2v2 fight both tanky dps wil jump on support kiling support instantly, if support builds tanky dps the other 2 tanky dps kill your tanky dps then 2 v 1 you since your damage output is low.

Also you only have 130 games played and 30 wins over losses, And judging by the "poor picks" from your screenshots Leona, Teemo, multiple people running flash, someone playing singed when the other team has 3 ranged champs, building capping item on singed, Vayne going 2/13 etc... the people you are playing with are BAD which is why you do decent as support.

At higher elo levels of dominion you start getting teams like Xin Zhao/Ryze/Heimerdinger/Talon/Kog Maw/Wukong/Skarner/Gangplank/Pantheon/Yorick/Kassaddin pretty much entire teams of tier 1 champs


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Elealar

Senior Member

10-22-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by KommunistKevin View Post
Also you only have 130 games played and 30 wins over losses, And judging by the "poor picks" from your screenshots Leona, Teemo, multiple people running flash, someone playing singed when the other team has 3 ranged champs, building capping item on singed, Vayne going 2/13 etc... the people you are playing with are BAD which is why you do decent as support.

At higher elo levels of dominion you start getting teams like Xin Zhao/Ryze/Heimerdinger/Talon/Kog Maw/Wukong/Skarner/Gangplank/Pantheon/Yorick/Kassaddin pretty much entire teams of tier 1 champs
Currently I have ~170 wins, 100 losses (I recall 169, 99 right now) with over 30 min queue times so obviously I can't be that low ELO. I can provide you with a screenshot if you need me to. I destroy tanky DPS line-ups with kiters. Guess what, Xin charges you, you zephyr + gale or slow him and walk away 'cause your slow is stronger than his. He won't be able to proc his knock-up unless you **** up.

Same applies to Jax, Pantheon, Irelia, etc. Akali, Talon & Kassadin are different matters; they're assassin and you probably should have your own assassins or tanky DPS take on them instead - going head-on with assassins outside towers is pretty dumb if you're playing squishies. They won't be able to kill you with their approach combo unless you're doing something real wrong.


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KommunistKevin

Senior Member

10-22-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elealar View Post
Currently I have ~170 wins, 100 losses (I recall 169, 99 right now) with over 30 min queue times so obviously I can't be that low ELO. I can provide you with a screenshot if you need me to. I destroy tanky DPS line-ups with kiters. Guess what, Xin charges you, you zephyr + gale or slow him and walk away 'cause your slow is stronger than his. He won't be able to proc his knock-up unless you **** up.

Same applies to Jax, Pantheon, Irelia, etc. Akali, Talon & Kassadin are different matters; they're assassin and you probably should have your own assassins or tanky DPS take on them instead - going head-on with assassins outside towers is pretty dumb if you're playing squishies. They won't be able to kill you with their approach combo unless you're doing something real wrong.
Okay great you can run away from Xin Zhao but in that timeframe he hit you with his E and like 2 autoattacks boosts by his Q while you hit xin zhao with a Q (uncharged) +W

You have lost a TON more life than X to the Z and are now forced back to the fountain while X to the Z is ready to assault one of your caps in an unfavorable position

SO if the other team has any assassin whatsoever you are forced to sit next to a tower all game

Even if they don't kill you with their combo they will take off a good chunk of your health while you will do pretty much no damage to them, forcing you to heal while they continue to defend or assault

You should really this thread

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=1394554

which explains why champions that are extremely difficult to 1v1 are kings of this map, since it forces an uneven expenditure of resources


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Elealar

Senior Member

10-22-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by KommunistKevin View Post
Okay great you can run away from Xin Zhao but in that timeframe he hit you with his E and like 2 autoattacks boosts by his Q while you hit xin zhao with a Q (uncharged) +W

You have lost a TON more life than X to the Z and are now forced back to the fountain while X to the Z is ready to assault one of your caps
You have landed maybe 1000-1200 worth of damage on him (Janna WQ, Zilean QQ, Sona Power Chord + Q + Sheen; tho Sona plays out more as a tanky DPS really). He prolly hit you for ~800 or so, and then you either have shield, armor-buff + heal or revive available while he might get ~25 life back. Chances are he lost in the trade. Further, you probably have lower cooldowns than he does (I rarely see Xins build CDR beyond Ghostblade so ~10 secs, maybe 8 with two CDR hits); you'll be able to lay more pain on him before he charges again. That's kinda the whole point of kiting.

Tell you what, go ahead and try it yourself. Play a game with...say Janna, build AP/CDR (Catalyst > CDR Boots > Fiendish Codex > RoA > Deathcap > as game dictates with Deathfire Grasp/Voidstaff/etc.) and just WQ-kite people with E-shield on yourself or damaging/targeted ally depending on the situation, use R as a reset button as necessary.


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KommunistKevin

Senior Member

10-22-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elealar View Post
You have landed maybe 1000-1200 worth of damage on him (Janna WQ, Zilean QQ, Sona Power Chord + Q + Sheen; tho Sona plays out more as a tanky DPS really). He prolly hit you for ~800 or so, and then you either have shield, armor-buff + heal or revive available while he might get ~25 life back. Chances are he lost in the trade. Further, you probably have lower cooldowns than he does (I rarely see Xins build CDR beyond Ghostblade so ~10 secs, maybe 8 with two CDR hits); you'll be able to lay more pain on him before he charges again. That's kinda the whole point of kiting.

Tell you what, go ahead and try it yourself. Play a game with...say Janna, build AP/CDR (Catalyst > CDR Boots > Fiendish Codex > RoA > Deathcap > as game dictates with Deathfire Grasp/Voidstaff/etc.) and just WQ-kite people with E-shield on yourself or damaging/targeted ally depending on the situation, use R as a reset button as necessary.
1200 damage from Janna's W+Q? What are you smoking

Howling Gale 160 (+0.75 per ability power)

Zephyr Magic Damage: 60 / 115 / 170 / 225 / 280 (+0.8 per ability power)

You would need 350 AP, and Xin will probably have over 100 MR so you would need around 500 AP

Getting 500 AP on janna is pretty unrealistic and most xin players will simply back off if their cooldowns are down

140 + 80 + 80 + 80 + 80 * 1.3 = 484

To get 484 AP you would need deathcap and 4 needlessly large rods

Meanwhile with Xin Zhao you are doing 600 WITHOUT any items


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Elealar

Senior Member

10-22-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by KommunistKevin View Post
1200 damage from Janna's W+Q? What are you smoking

Howling Gale 160 (+0.75 per ability power)

Zephyr Magic Damage: 60 / 115 / 170 / 225 / 280 (+0.8 per ability power)

You would need 350 AP, and Xin will probably have over 100 MR so you would need around 500 AP

Getting 500 AP on janna is pretty unrealistic and most xin players will simply back off if their cooldowns are down

140 + 80 + 80 + 80 + 80 * 1.3 = 484

To get 484 AP you would need deathcap and 4 needlessly large rods

Meanwhile with Xin Zhao you are doing 600 WITHOUT any items
Once you have Cap, you have 400 AP easily with runes and masteries + RoA & Codex. Xin'll have his items but he generally itemizes ASpd for obvious reasons, which was accounted for already. He may and should itemize defense in such a scenario but at that point the math gets too complex to truly be worth it. All I can tell you is that in my practical experience, you should have no trouble laying a hurt on him as long as he isn't able to stack only MR (that is, your team contains multiple physical damage dealers too) and after your first volley, you can easily land a second one before his cooldowns are back up.

Xin can't really escape; again, he's slowed and he's forced to commit to do ****. Xin's biggest weakness is that he's so all-in; once a Xin engages, anyone with a slow can prevent him from disengaging and anyone with a strong slow can prevent him from continuing to engage either putting him in an awkward position against anyone that doesn't instantly die or want to fight him 1v1. Xin wrecks in the fair fight but we're specifically talking about not fighting the fair fight here. Fighting fair against champions who can only engage in melee is stupid.

The map isn't only about melee champions. Melee champions are terribly suited for capturing defended points and quite poor for defending points too. Melees' niché is fighting over uncontrolled points and in the jungle, and during dives; they have their place but a team of only melees is, put frankly, quite terrible against a rounded team.