@Xypherous: AD Itemization, Spell Vamp, and Atma's Impaler

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2xHero

Senior Member

10-16-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I'm of the opinion that a lot of tanky DPS have ridiculous base damages and utterly atrocious scaling - which is why they're all pigeonholed into triforce + tank items. Part of Riven's design was to be a test of this theory - If you gave someone the proper incentive and removed their base damages to force them to build AD - would they be viable? Would that even work? Why is buying AD such a hard sell?
To start, the champions that would most want a "pure" AD build are the following:

  • Garen (potentially)
  • Lee Sin (potentially)
  • Pantheon
  • Renekton
  • Riven
  • Talon
  • Urgot (potentially)
  • Wukong
  • Yorick (potentially)

These champions could be considered AD mages. As mages want AP, spell pen, CDR, and sometimes spell vamp, these champions want AD, armor pen, CDR, and sometimes spell vamp since they deal most of their damage with spells.

However, buying optimally for a "pure" AD build is not possible with the current item setup. There is no AD equivalent for Death Cap, and most AD items have undesirable stats like lifesteal, attack speed, or critical strike attached. This forces most of these champions into tanky DPS builds like Atmog's or Manamune/Frozen Heart/BVeil to stay relevant late game.

I understand that you are not on live balance, and do not know what changes you can influence, but several AD itemization options need to change before "pure" AD builds can feel complete.

  1. Plain old AD needs to be more available to "pure" AD builds. Most high end AD items have crit chance, attack speed, and lifesteal tacked on to them. Attack speed is the least bad of these three, but it's still not particularly desirable for AD mages. A good start would be to enable Entropy in classic mode. It gives loads of AD, a slow, and a little bit of defense. A little bit of defense isn't bad - even many AP mages still buy Rod of Ages for extra health. Another option would be to have an upgrade path from Hexdrinker. It's MR would be really nice for AD mages who pass on Merc Treads to get the CDR from Ionian Boots. The upgraded Hexdrinker could even have tenacity, spell vamp, or CDR to kill two birds with one stone.
  2. Cooldown reduction needs to be more available to "pure" AD builds. The only cooldown reduction items that feel good are Brutalizer and Ionian Boots. One problem is that Brutalizer is an early game item. The other is that taking Ionian Boots makes it a bit harder for most AD champions to get tenacity. Cloak and Dagger and Moonfire Spellblade are right now. Elesia's Miracle is no good on half of them since they don't use mana.
  3. Spell vamp needs to be more available to "pure" AD builds. Hextech Gunblade was a band-aid item that worked because it was so cheap for the stats it gave. With that being nerfed, a true AD spell vamp item should be added.

Next, Atma's Impaler enters. Atma's has a few problems. The first problem is that Atma's Impaler is absolutely ridiculously gold efficient. The recipe costs 825 and adds nothing to the ingredients except AD. Since it scales with total HP instead of bonus HP, Anivia, who has the lowest base HP at level 18 (1610 HP), still gets 32 AD for 825 gold. That is far more cost efficient than basic AD items fueling true tanky DPS champions like Xin Zhao and Nocturne, allowing true carries to efficiently buy some armor without sacrificing much in DPS, and setting the Atmog's Trap for AD mages. The second problem is that Atma's Impaler covers too many itemization holes - an armor/DPS item, an AD/crit chance item, and the HP->AD converter. To solve this, Atma's Impaler should be split into three items.

  1. An AD/Crit chance item. This would really just be a lower tier stat stick alternative or compliment to Infinity Edge. It would probably work best as an upgrade from Bilgewater Cutlass or Executioner's Calling. Both of those have actives that DPS characters like and have some lifesteal which would help to differentiate this new items from Infinity Edge.
  2. An AD/DPS item. We have two MR/DPS items (Wit's End and Hexdrinker). We have AP/armor in Zhonya's Hourglass. We have AP/MR in Abyssal Scepter. The new item could be Armor/Crit or Armor/Attack speed to discourage tanky DPS from buying it. Madred's Bloodrazor simply doesn't cut it as an attack speed/armor item. It costs so much more than Atma's, doesn't scale as well for physical DPS, and offers much less armor.
  3. The HP->AD converter. This one could keep the name Atma's Impaler. The recipe should be changed to Pickaxe + Ruby Crystal + Gold. It could be cheaper and/or have a higher conversion ratio, but it should only convert from bonus HP instead of base HP.


TL;DR New items for AD-centric builds are necessary. Atma's Impaler fills to many item roles and needs to be split/reworked.


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Rage Virus

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Senior Member

10-17-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2xHero View Post
To start, the champions that would most want a "pure" AD build are the following:

  • Garen (potentially)
  • Lee Sin (potentially)
  • Pantheon
  • Renekton
  • Riven
  • Talon
  • Urgot (potentially)
  • Wukong
  • Yorick (potentially)

These champions could be considered AD mages. As mages want AP, spell pen, CDR, and sometimes spell vamp, these champions want AD, armor pen, CDR, and sometimes spell vamp since they deal most of their damage with spells.

However, buying optimally for a "pure" AD build is not possible with the current item setup. There is no AD equivalent for Death Cap, and most AD items have undesirable stats like lifesteal, attack speed, or critical strike attached. This forces most of these champions into tanky DPS builds like Atmog's or Manamune/Frozen Heart/BVeil to stay relevant late game.

I understand that you are not on live balance, and do not know what changes you can influence, but several AD itemization options need to change before "pure" AD builds can feel complete.

  1. Plain old AD needs to be more available to "pure" AD builds. Most high end AD items have crit chance, attack speed, and lifesteal tacked on to them. Attack speed is the least bad of these three, but it's still not particularly desirable for AD mages. A good start would be to enable Entropy in classic mode. It gives loads of AD, a slow, and a little bit of defense. A little bit of defense isn't bad - even many AP mages still buy Rod of Ages for extra health. Another option would be to have an upgrade path from Hexdrinker. It's MR would be really nice for AD mages who pass on Merc Treads to get the CDR from Ionian Boots. The upgraded Hexdrinker could even have tenacity, spell vamp, or CDR to kill two birds with one stone.
  2. Cooldown reduction needs to be more available to "pure" AD builds. The only cooldown reduction items that feel good are Brutalizer and Ionian Boots. One problem is that Brutalizer is an early game item. The other is that taking Ionian Boots makes it a bit harder for most AD champions to get tenacity. Cloak and Dagger and Moonfire Spellblade are right now. Elesia's Miracle is no good on half of them since they don't use mana.
  3. Spell vamp needs to be more available to "pure" AD builds. Hextech Gunblade was a band-aid item that worked because it was so cheap for the stats it gave. With that being nerfed, a true AD spell vamp item should be added.

Next, Atma's Impaler enters. Atma's has a few problems. The first problem is that Atma's Impaler is absolutely ridiculously gold efficient. The recipe costs 825 and adds nothing to the ingredients except AD. Since it scales with total HP instead of bonus HP, Anivia, who has the lowest base HP at level 18 (1610 HP), still gets 32 AD for 825 gold. That is far more cost efficient than basic AD items fueling true tanky DPS champions like Xin Zhao and Nocturne, allowing true carries to efficiently buy some armor without sacrificing much in DPS, and setting the Atmog's Trap for AD mages. The second problem is that Atma's Impaler covers too many itemization holes - an armor/DPS item, an AD/crit chance item, and the HP->AD converter. To solve this, Atma's Impaler should be split into three items.

  1. An AD/Crit chance item. This would really just be a lower tier stat stick alternative or compliment to Infinity Edge. It would probably work best as an upgrade from Bilgewater Cutlass or Executioner's Calling. Both of those have actives that DPS characters like and have some lifesteal which would help to differentiate this new items from Infinity Edge.
  2. An AD/DPS item. We have two MR/DPS items (Wit's End and Hexdrinker). We have AP/armor in Zhonya's Hourglass. We have AP/MR in Abyssal Scepter. The new item could be Armor/Crit or Armor/Attack speed to discourage tanky DPS from buying it. Madred's Bloodrazor simply doesn't cut it as an attack speed/armor item. It costs so much more than Atma's, doesn't scale as well for physical DPS, and offers much less armor.
  3. The HP->AD converter. This one could keep the name Atma's Impaler. The recipe should be changed to Pickaxe + Ruby Crystal + Gold. It could be cheaper and/or have a higher conversion ratio, but it should only convert from bonus HP instead of base HP.


TL;DR New items for AD-centric builds are necessary. Atma's Impaler fills to many item roles and needs to be split/reworked.
I have been trying to bring up how crazy efficient Atma's is but I seem to always get downvoted to hell and back again. Then the moderators close my thread.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=1368864

^^ look there for more info on the numbers. Atma's + level 18 + Warmogs(full) is what u want. Warmog's is fine for its cost. But Atmas makes it sooooo good.


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2xHero

Senior Member

10-17-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rage Virus View Post
I have been trying to bring up how crazy efficient Atma's is but I seem to always get downvoted to hell and back again. Then the moderators close my thread.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=1368864

^^ look there for more info on the numbers. Atma's + level 18 + Warmogs(full) is what u want. Warmog's is fine for its cost. But Atmas makes it sooooo good.
Atma's has problems by itself though. The combination of Atma's + Warmog's simply abuses the combination. The combination of health and armor gives a lot more effective health than armor alone, and Atma's gives good offensive stats even without buying health items. I think that buy replacing the armor from Atma's with health and having it only give damage based on bonus health, the problem would be mostly fixed.


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DarkPlatypus

Senior Member

10-18-2011

AD itemization sucks because raw AD is stupidly hard to get compared to raw AP. That's the end of that. Stat sticks need to be added for pure AD. Pickaxe + BF would be a good start. Also, a better version of the Brutalizer. The reason Brut is so popular on its own is because it gives three stats that AD casters adore - AD, CDR and ArP. Brut + BF or Brut + Pickaxe would be very welcome, giving a higher tier version of that stat lineup, maybe with some extra ArP.

Another thing to consider might be changing how Lifesteal / Spellvamp work. Maybe instead of Lifesteal working off autoattacks (with few exceptions) and Spellvamp off abilities (regardless of damage type) it could be changed so Lifesteal covers all Physical damage (AA or Ability) and Spellvamp all Magic and True damage. This would make Bloodthirster a more viable option for AD casters. Naturally, AoE Physical abilities would be subject to the same reduction as AoE Spellvamping is at the moment (33% effectiveness per target if I recall).


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2xHero

Senior Member

10-18-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkPlatypus View Post
AD itemization sucks because raw AD is stupidly hard to get compared to raw AP. That's the end of that. Stat sticks need to be added for pure AD. Pickaxe + BF would be a good start. Also, a better version of the Brutalizer. The reason Brut is so popular on its own is because it gives three stats that AD casters adore - AD, CDR and ArP. Brut + BF or Brut + Pickaxe would be very welcome, giving a higher tier version of that stat lineup, maybe with some extra ArP.

Another thing to consider might be changing how Lifesteal / Spellvamp work. Maybe instead of Lifesteal working off autoattacks (with few exceptions) and Spellvamp off abilities (regardless of damage type) it could be changed so Lifesteal covers all Physical damage (AA or Ability) and Spellvamp all Magic and True damage. This would make Bloodthirster a more viable option for AD casters. Naturally, AoE Physical abilities would be subject to the same reduction as AoE Spellvamping is at the moment (33% effectiveness per target if I recall).
Your first point is definitely true. I covered that in the OP, but didn't mention some of your points. Raw AD needs to be accessible, but in ways that do not make AD carries OP or become trap items. For example, an upgrade from Brutalizer sounds good, but would it have enough to differentiate it from Last Whisperer? Flat armor pen fades late game, so it doesn't make a lot of sense to put it in a high tier damage item. I think that it would make more sense to have a couple higher tier damage items that combine AD with spellvamp/cdr and defense. I think that the combination of spell vamp and defense would make these items strong on AD casters, but not highly desirable on carries.

Example:
Runegorger
Hexdrinker + Pickaxe + ~800 gold (~3575 gold total)
60 AD
40 MR
20% spellvamp
Unique Passive: improved hexdrinker spellshield


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Tarshana

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Senior Member

10-18-2011

Having Urgot's shield scale with something other than AP would be nice. I doubt they can change it without breaking him to the OP or UP bin tho...

With that being said- Urgot is not an AD mage =)


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Mit213

Senior Member

10-19-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarshana View Post
Having Urgot's shield scale with something other than AP would be nice. I doubt they can change it without breaking him to the OP or UP bin tho...

With that being said- Urgot is not an AD mage =)
I liked him as a tanky AD mage with Manamune, Glacial Shroud, and a Hextech with other items built around who the other team was, it was fun, but this patch shall kill the chances of me ever doing that again haha


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Varghul

Senior Member

10-19-2011

we need more damage/cdr items!! id love to see brutalized getting a different path than yoummu


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Ebonclaw

Senior Member

10-19-2011

I gave you a +1, though I feel your analysis was only partial.

Yes, AD items tend to give ancillary stats like IAS and Crit, which makes it hard to just stack AD. But also, the AP items that don't have things like Mana Regen and CDR tend to have things that make the champion more durable, HP/MR/Armor.

Physical Mages get double screwed, due to the relative inefficiency of stacking AD just for the sake of AD, AND the fact that a pure Physical Damage build is much more glass cannon, by necessity, than a pure Magic Damage build tends to be. The items are designed around the idea that if you magnify your AD through speed and crit, and then add some Lifesteal, THAT is your survivability. Creating Physical Casters without considering that the itemization was designed with a clear delineation between Attackers (Physical), and Casters (Magic), will create champs that just don't work very well. ESPECIALLY so when most of them are melee range, and will get crushed like a grape. A very sharp, spiky, dangerous, and yet so squishy and sweet grape.


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WOB Jun

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Junior Member

10-19-2011

How about an item for pure AD why not?

Sword of Time 3000G

BF Sword
Long Sword
935 gold recipe
stats: 80 AD
Unique Passive +2 AD per minute.


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