Carrying dominion games as Ryze

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Nekrogen

Senior Member

10-17-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteAndMilky View Post
I usually get 1st most games when I play ryze, with most kills, least deaths, and most captures and assists. There are other champs that can bot lane, I think ryze needs to be top so he can carry. You can't carry from a bot lane, unless you're heimerdinger and you take their bot turret and camp it all day.
Capturing and holding their bottom point is very easy to do as Ryze. You may be forced to abandon it if they bring a second or third down, but by then you've already done your job and made a great contribution to your team. To hold their bot point, utilize your range when they are not on the point, and snare when they go onto the point. If they attempt to bring in a large wave of minions, ult them down and kill the enemy with them. Take advantage of the health relic, and you should be able to stay there for as long as possible.


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WhiteAndMilky

Senior Member

10-17-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nekrogen View Post
Capturing and holding their bottom point is very easy to do as Ryze. You may be forced to abandon it if they bring a second or third down, but by then you've already done your job and made a great contribution to your team. To hold their bot point, utilize your range when they are not on the point, and snare when they go onto the point. If they attempt to bring in a large wave of minions, ult them down and kill the enemy with them. Take advantage of the health relic, and you should be able to stay there for as long as possible.
I can see this yeah. I just suppose top is my comfort zone now, and more to my playstyle. I have only really played bot lane as AP TF. So I don't know too much about it.


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Warrrrax

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Senior Member

10-18-2011

My thoughts:

1) Interesting idea on the mana/lvl yellows. Armor and MP5 are my standard ones, but since I rush Shroud, a few extra armor early isn't that useful.

2) Blue - I take the standard 9 flat CDR runes which give 6%. That plus the expected 6-9% masteries = 12-15%. Since Frozen is pretty much mandatory anyways, I can see that I have 2-5% worth of wiggle room to optimize. Dont really have extra runesets to play with, but I might consider buying a special one for experiments like this.

3) Kind of an odd mastery. From 15 to 21 Utility is where all the good stuff is. 6% CDR is huuge and would let you use some blue runes on mana/level too. 15% faster summoner is obviously strong.
I then take 8 defense for the armor,MR, and Str of Spirit. Since Ryze has flat mana reduction and few build MR, Im just not sure the 15% spell pen is really worth it. Otherwise, Offense doesn't do much for you, other than imp exhaust which is what I take.

4) Id think Shroud is mandatory ASAP. With 10% CDR for free and an ideal 10 to 15% from rune/mastery, Shroud gets you that 35 to 40% CDR ASAP for your combos. Shroud is a HUGE DPS item.

5) I totally agree with going bottom. Lets you fill that Tear, plus Ryze doesnt start off as THAT great, but quickly builds in power.

6) I do like the will of the ancients. Spellvamp can help win fights vs the melee guys.


7) Why promote over exhaust? You WILL be playing against Jumpers. You might get off a Q and even a snare before they charge you, but this is dicey. Jax jump has a 700(!) range. Xin has 650. More often than not, after my first Q I get charged. Sometimes I can Q then retreat, but Q, snare is relatively rare. So, the exhaust on-charge is really solid to save a bunch of damage.. I then bust out my combo and can nuke em down.
The alternative is to snare them as soon as they charge, then step back and blast away...using my Flash to evade them until my snare is back up.

8) great detailed guide! Lots of good advice.


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Nekrogen

Senior Member

10-18-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrrrax View Post
My thoughts:

1) Interesting idea on the mana/lvl yellows. Armor and MP5 are my standard ones, but since I rush Shroud, a few extra armor early isn't that useful.

2) Blue - I take the standard 9 flat CDR runes which give 6%. That plus the expected 6-9% masteries = 12-15%. Since Frozen is pretty much mandatory anyways, I can see that I have 2-5% worth of wiggle room to optimize. Dont really have extra runesets to play with, but I might consider buying a special one for experiments like this.

3) Kind of an odd mastery. From 15 to 21 Utility is where all the good stuff is. 6% CDR is huuge and would let you use some blue runes on mana/level too. 15% faster summoner is obviously strong.
I then take 8 defense for the armor,MR, and Str of Spirit. Since Ryze has flat mana reduction and few build MR, Im just not sure the 15% spell pen is really worth it. Otherwise, Offense doesn't do much for you, other than imp exhaust which is what I take.

4) Id think Shroud is mandatory ASAP. With 10% CDR for free and an ideal 10 to 15% from rune/mastery, Shroud gets you that 35 to 40% CDR ASAP for your combos. Shroud is a HUGE DPS item.

5) I totally agree with going bottom. Lets you fill that Tear, plus Ryze doesnt start off as THAT great, but quickly builds in power.

6) I do like the will of the ancients. Spellvamp can help win fights vs the melee guys.


7) Why promote over exhaust? You WILL be playing against Jumpers. You might get off a Q and even a snare before they charge you, but this is dicey. Jax jump has a 700(!) range. Xin has 650. More often than not, after my first Q I get charged. Sometimes I can Q then retreat, but Q, snare is relatively rare. So, the exhaust on-charge is really solid to save a bunch of damage.. I then bust out my combo and can nuke em down.
The alternative is to snare them as soon as they charge, then step back and blast away...using my Flash to evade them until my snare is back up.

8) great detailed guide! Lots of good advice.
These are fantastic points!

1) mana/lvl runes on crystal scar make ryze extremely powerful. You get that mana really really fast and the return is a no brainer. You don't really need mana/5 on this map (or on ryze in general) and yeah you grab armor early so it doesn't really matter unless you're against j4, lee sin, xin zhao, etc. I'm considering switching out my CDR blues for mana/lvl because the early game advantage is just so huge to pass up (of course this would mean a 9/0/21 mastery setup which I don't particularly like).

2) Yeah you're better off optimizing his CDR to exactly 40%.

3) I've been experimenting with different defensive masteries (3 in armor vs strength of the spirit), but generally 15 in utility is fine since all I want from it is the movespeed. I get exactly 40% CDR with the current setup, and nice amounts of damage output from the offensive tree. 15% penetration is very useful against high MR targets in lane, which is why I grab it.

4) Getting 40% CDR ASAP is extremely important I agree, but don't neglect your survivability if you're gettin wrecked in lane.

5) Absolutely. He's perfectly fine top, but you DO farm tear a lot more bottom just because you have more targets at all times. If you notice your team doing kinda bad top, you can switch over and dominate top too and hope your team can hold bot.

6) Spellvamp makes Ryze a god on this map. I mean it's rediculous how much longer you live. WotA's only weakness is when you can't cast spells tho, so make sure to grab elisia's miracle/spellblade/mercs/QSS if you need to.

7) Exhaust is a good spell and I would get it over flash if you really feel that strongly about it. The thing about bottom lane is you NEED to have some sort of pushing advantage, and while Ryze pushes bot really hard he does benefit from taking or neutralizing their point because it draws attention from top lane. I've seen flash/exhaust work, but if you exhausted me bottom lane I could just flash over from the health relic and get a free ghost (speed relic), or flash over the boundaries at the points and lose vision using the brush if they flash over. Either way Exhaust isn't going to help you push the lane; I would advise against it.

8) And thanks for yours I can tell you know what it's like to carry your games using the bottom lane lol.


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Weirding

Senior Member

10-18-2011

Some feedback from my time playing Ryze:

Skipping Rod of the Ages is a huge mistake that will punish you if the game goes beyond 15 minutes. You need the massive mana it provides to offset the magic resistance that many champions will pick up against you.

Tear + boots is still a viable choice when going top instead of bottom, but you need to be more conservative. If I'm taking Ryze top I usually grab mid so I can show up to the party late.

Ryze probably doesn't need Tenacity unless the opposing team is very CC-heavy. If you need Tenacity the correct item to get is the Moonflair Spellblade; the AP on it may not help much, but it helps some and certainly means a lot more than the HP/MP regen on Miracle.

The most efficient build order for Ryze is:

Tear + Boots
Catalyst
Sorc Shoes
Rod of the Ages
Glacial Shroud
Catalyst
Odyn's Veil
Frozen Heart

At this point you need to look at what items your opponents have built. If they are building heavy MR you should build an Abyssal Scepter. If they are only building a single MR item then you should build a Will of the Ancients. You should probably sell your Tenacity item at this point in time if you have one, since you will be quite tanky and therefore a poor target for CC.

Turning your Tear into an AA staff should be the absolute last thing that you do. I can honestly say that I have only done it once in a game, and it was a very, very long game (nearly 30 minutes).

I prefer to go 9/0/21, taking the added CDR and Presence of the Master in Utility. The added armor and MR in defense is rapidly devalued because of how much armor and MR Ryze builds normally, and taking both Sorcery and Intelligence not only gives you 39% CDR with Overload rank 5 and a Frozen Heart, it allows you to start the game with 11% CDR -- a noticeable amount for the first fight.

The biggest advantage to this mastery selection is that it frees you to take mana/level Glyphs and Seals, resulting in a massive boost to mana at level 18. I use Magic Penetration Marks and Quints straight across the board; in other words I build my runes entirely for damage.

The only summoner spell you NEED on this map is Ghost -- it is the "Flash of Dominion". The other spell is personal preference, but I like Exhaust as it can be used for offense or defense, and can lock up a kill or save a life. I don't care much for Promote because the Promoted minion is an easy kill after everyone hits level 12, which happens quickly.

Don't overvalue the importance of the middle health relic at bottom lane. You can always fall back to get the relic near your tower, whereas the enemy will be miles away from their own if they push the lane. I prefer to play a conservative early game, using Overload on cooldown to farm minions and build my Tear, often allowing the enemy to push the minion line. This sets them up nicely for a gank from jungle which then gives us a free cap or neut on their bottom or at least gives some more free-farm time.

Remember that in team fights the right plan of attack may be to cast Overload at a squishy DPS opponent while using Rune Prison on a tanky DPS that you don't actually intend to kill. You do not have to focus all your fire at a single target.


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Nekrogen

Senior Member

10-18-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weirding View Post
Some feedback from my time playing Ryze:

Skipping Rod of the Ages is a huge mistake that will punish you if the game goes beyond 15 minutes. You need the massive mana it provides to offset the magic resistance that many champions will pick up against you.

Tear + boots is still a viable choice when going top instead of bottom, but you need to be more conservative. If I'm taking Ryze top I usually grab mid so I can show up to the party late.

Ryze probably doesn't need Tenacity unless the opposing team is very CC-heavy. If you need Tenacity the correct item to get is the Moonflair Spellblade; the AP on it may not help much, but it helps some and certainly means a lot more than the HP/MP regen on Miracle.

The most efficient build order for Ryze is:

Tear + Boots
Catalyst
Sorc Shoes
Rod of the Ages
Glacial Shroud
Catalyst
Odyn's Veil
Frozen Heart

At this point you need to look at what items your opponents have built. If they are building heavy MR you should build an Abyssal Scepter. If they are only building a single MR item then you should build a Will of the Ancients. You should probably sell your Tenacity item at this point in time if you have one, since you will be quite tanky and therefore a poor target for CC.

Turning your Tear into an AA staff should be the absolute last thing that you do. I can honestly say that I have only done it once in a game, and it was a very, very long game (nearly 30 minutes).

I prefer to go 9/0/21, taking the added CDR and Presence of the Master in Utility. The added armor and MR in defense is rapidly devalued because of how much armor and MR Ryze builds normally, and taking both Sorcery and Intelligence not only gives you 39% CDR with Overload rank 5 and a Frozen Heart, it allows you to start the game with 11% CDR -- a noticeable amount for the first fight.

The biggest advantage to this mastery selection is that it frees you to take mana/level Glyphs and Seals, resulting in a massive boost to mana at level 18. I use Magic Penetration Marks and Quints straight across the board; in other words I build my runes entirely for damage.

The only summoner spell you NEED on this map is Ghost -- it is the "Flash of Dominion". The other spell is personal preference, but I like Exhaust as it can be used for offense or defense, and can lock up a kill or save a life. I don't care much for Promote because the Promoted minion is an easy kill after everyone hits level 12, which happens quickly.

Don't overvalue the importance of the middle health relic at bottom lane. You can always fall back to get the relic near your tower, whereas the enemy will be miles away from their own if they push the lane. I prefer to play a conservative early game, using Overload on cooldown to farm minions and build my Tear, often allowing the enemy to push the minion line. This sets them up nicely for a gank from jungle which then gives us a free cap or neut on their bottom or at least gives some more free-farm time.

Remember that in team fights the right plan of attack may be to cast Overload at a squishy DPS opponent while using Rune Prison on a tanky DPS that you don't actually intend to kill. You do not have to focus all your fire at a single target.
A few things:
-Getting mana/lvl = damage on Ryze. You need to balance penetration with damage output.
-RoA does not provide MR. You will be murdered bottom lane considering most viable bot lanes are AP. RoA also take a while to build, but is good under ideal circumstances.
-Ghost is not useful bottom lane because you can just flash over the wall to grab the speed relic anyways. Promote is infinitely useful for pushing the lane; only use it when your minion wave is about to reach their point for maximum capture rate. Ghost is useful for everyone else (need to make sure top is secure), and exhaust is preference to flash. Just because ghost is overrated on this map, doesn't mean it works everywhere.
-Getting the middle hp relic is essential simply because you have the health advantage in the early skirmish. If you want to go back and get the 1 at your point, you give the push advantage to your lane opponent and it has the same effect.

The rest of your points I agree with.


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Weirding

Senior Member

10-18-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nekrogen View Post
A few things:
-Getting mana/lvl = damage on Ryze. You need to balance penetration with damage output.
-RoA does not provide MR. You will be murdered bottom lane considering most viable bot lanes are AP. RoA also take a while to build, but is good under ideal circumstances.
-Ghost is not useful bottom lane because you can just flash over the wall to grab the speed relic anyways. Promote is infinitely useful for pushing the lane; only use it when your minion wave is about to reach their point for maximum capture rate. Ghost is useful for everyone else (need to make sure top is secure), and exhaust is preference to flash. Just because ghost is overrated on this map, doesn't mean it works everywhere.
-Getting the middle hp relic is essential simply because you have the health advantage in the early skirmish. If you want to go back and get the 1 at your point, you give the push advantage to your lane opponent and it has the same effect.

The rest of your points I agree with.
I have no idea what you mean about "balance penetration with damage output". I'm using MR Pen marks and quints with mana/level seals and glyphs. I can do this in my build because I have Intelligence giving me 6% CDR from masteries and don't need CDR glyphs. My rune page and masteries give me considerably more damage -- and considerably faster -- than your setup does.

RoA doesn't provide MR, but it does provide a ton of health and mana early. If you really need MR because you are facing a lane bully AP caster you can buy a Negatron Cloak to see you through while building the Rod. Skipping the Rod dramatically weakens your build.

Ghost is much better than Flash here. You're not always going to be on the bottom lane; sometimes you will need to get somewhere fast from a location other than near the wall by the speed shrine. Ghost is like having a speed shrine on-demand no matter where you are -- even in your well.

The teams I play on gank bottom regularly, and it leads to a lot of wins. Pushing your lane hard in an attempt to get the middle relic would probably only get you killed against good teams. It only takes one person and a minute or two to gank bottom here, and since you are hugging the top wall instead of near the bushes you are even more vulnerable to an incoming gank from the jungle. Top is important, but if it is safe and you can secure the enemy bottom or kill their defender you can take a lot of pressure off top. Going after the bottom defender is a stronger strategy than pushing the enemy mid, especially if you already control top.

You focus very heavily on Ryze acting along the bottom, but a good bottom defender has to know when it's time to leave there and go do something else. You cannot be wedded to that lane, and you need to be set up to do more than simply push minions.


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Nekrogen

Senior Member

10-18-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weirding View Post
I have no idea what you mean about "balance penetration with damage output". I'm using MR Pen marks and quints with mana/level seals and glyphs. I can do this in my build because I have Intelligence giving me 6% CDR from masteries and don't need CDR glyphs. My rune page and masteries give me considerably more damage -- and considerably faster -- than your setup does.

RoA doesn't provide MR, but it does provide a ton of health and mana early. If you really need MR because you are facing a lane bully AP caster you can buy a Negatron Cloak to see you through while building the Rod. Skipping the Rod dramatically weakens your build.

Ghost is much better than Flash here. You're not always going to be on the bottom lane; sometimes you will need to get somewhere fast from a location other than near the wall by the speed shrine. Ghost is like having a speed shrine on-demand no matter where you are -- even in your well.

The teams I play on gank bottom regularly, and it leads to a lot of wins. Pushing your lane hard in an attempt to get the middle relic would probably only get you killed against good teams. It only takes one person and a minute or two to gank bottom here, and since you are hugging the top wall instead of near the bushes you are even more vulnerable to an incoming gank from the jungle. Top is important, but if it is safe and you can secure the enemy bottom or kill their defender you can take a lot of pressure off top. Going after the bottom defender is a stronger strategy than pushing the enemy mid, especially if you already control top.

You focus very heavily on Ryze acting along the bottom, but a good bottom defender has to know when it's time to leave there and go do something else. You cannot be wedded to that lane, and you need to be set up to do more than simply push minions.
I used to use RoA all the time on Ryze so I know the potential output it gives, but it just doesn't cut it in dominion considering you'll be facing people who you need to mitigate right away. I explain when it is useful to build RoA, but aside from then I wouldn't take it. WotA/revolver will allow you to effectively duel anyone, and tenacity will get you out of sticky situations, void/abysall will provide maximum damage output, etc. The runes and masteries can be rearranged however you'd like, just as long as you can dish out tons of damage at all stages in the game as well as survive high bursts.

I'm not going to argue with you. You have your way of playing him, and I have mine, this is simply a guide to playing Ryze bottom lane and why bottom lane is so important. I do state that you have to leave at some point, but every good player needs to decide when this is. I have showed my build, and showed reasoning for everything. If you don't like it then you don't have to use it.


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Warrrrax

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Senior Member

10-19-2011

I gotta disagree on the Rod thing. I used to take Rod first, but have since stopped. The reason is that Rod is kind of inefficient on Ryze believe it or not. He just doesnt benefit much from the AP, which is 1600g worth of value.
So for 3k gold, he gets 650ish health (1700g), and 750ish mana (1500g) and Id consider the AP worth about 1/2 value.

But it is actually worse than that! Ryze NEEDS the max CDR ASAP. It is the difference between Q,W,Q,E,Q,R combo, and a Q,W,E,Q,R,wait,Q combo. Wihtout max CDR, you cannot hit your Qs fast enough.
It is a HUGE DPS hit. Shroud gets you the needed CDR quickly, plus a good chunk of mana and heavy armor for all the AD carries out there...and theres lots of em.

Next is the Negatron. 36MR doesn't cut it. Having 1300 health with 84MR is better than 1800 health with 36 MR.

Note that by the time you have Rod and basic boots (3400g), Ive got a shroud, negatron, and sorc boots. That is a pretty big swing. In dominion you don't have time to suck. You have to be pretty strong pretty fast to compete.


I whined about it too when I was informed that Rod = bad. But I tried it. And I was convinced.


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Nekrogen

Senior Member

10-20-2011

Been seeing a lot of Ryze's lately using this strategy, makes me happy when they win it for their team . Please upvote if this guide has helped!