"You just counter-pick, duh..."

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haaaaaaaalp

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10-09-2011

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Originally Posted by Hozartis View Post
This thread is awesome. +1

There's a counter to everything when you think creatively.
Unfortunately, countering and beating a strategy are two completely different things. Oracle "counters" stealth units. It didn't do **** to the prefern twitch. Likewise, the "counters" to certain heroes (like jax) forces a team to focus so many resources on that one hero that they will unvariable lose to his four allies.

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Originally Posted by BigDaddyRelish View Post
I've been playing Akali as one of my top 5 since her release, and really she doesn't need nerfs that bad... She's just next on the chopping block it seems since so many nerfs have been dished out.

Again, Talon/LeBlanc make her life really difficult. I play LeBlanc a lot more than Talon but when I go up against one of them, there really isn't much of anything I can do. Talon just silences me and bursts me for a ton before I can retaliate, and his Q makes it so I can't shroud or escape. LeBlanc is even worse, LeBlanc is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO good at shutting down a single character and for someone like Akali she is especially ****ed, since between her roots and silences Akali can go for upwards of 10 seconds without being able to do ****.


It's not THAT hard to counter champs, people just don't want to do it. Just like how nobody wanted to stop taking AP mid so of course Morgana raped the **** out of them...
Not sure about Talon but Leblanc is far from a good counter to any hero. She is extremely weak in all aspects of the game besides damaging a single target and forcing the other team to choose her just to keep one hero in check is usually more than enough to win the game. Also, keep in mind that assasins (which include akali) make life miserable for many heroes. While Akali might have trouble facerolling a team with an assasin on her back most of the time, many other heroes just outright die and contribute nothing to their team when they are focused by a hero like Leblanc. So, even when Akali is put in a situation where she has trouble, she still ends up contributing more than most other heroes (which is the main reason why so many people ban her).


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BigDaddyDelish

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10-09-2011

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Originally Posted by haaaaaaaalp View Post
Not sure about Talon but Leblanc is far from a good counter to any hero. She is extremely weak in all aspects of the game besides damaging a single target and forcing the other team to choose her just to keep one hero in check is usually more than enough to win the game. Also, keep in mind that assasins (which include akali) make life miserable for many heroes. While Akali might have trouble facerolling a team with an assasin on her back most of the time, many other heroes just outright die and contribute nothing to their team when they are focused by a hero like Leblanc. So, even when Akali is put in a situation where she has trouble, she still ends up contributing more than most other heroes (which is the main reason why so many people ban her).
Sorry but I have to hugely disagree here, at least for Dominion.

LeBlanc's main issue is her late game in SR, but this isn't attributed to poor scaling or anything like that like it usually is. It's a complete lack of ability to farm, and only one aoe ability that is mostly used as your escape as using Distortion to dive into a fight will inevitably get you killed before you can tp back to your port. With no items she can't scale so she is hugely dependent on snowballing hard to maintain her burst in SR, and no real aoe capabilities make teamfighting difficult for her

She is all about shutting down a single target. That is her entire design purpose, think about it. She can chain silence a target for up to 6 seconds if she chains her Sigil's correctly, or root for 4.4 seconds if she chooses to mimic Ethereal Chains instead of Sigil. And that is all complimenting her burst which has great scaling for the cd's.


That kind of cc isn't bad by any means. In Dominion, her inability to farm or teamfight don't matter, since Dominion is so much more of a skirmish map where you get huge amounts of gold for free. And when put against people like Jax or Akali, having the ability to make them effectively do nothing is a huge boon. Akali can't do anything when silenced, she can't shroud/ult/q/whatever. All she can do is auto-attack and her auto-attacks don't do **** really in comparison to other champs, even with the scaling from her passive.

And rooting Jax for 4.4 seconds makes his life miserable against anyone with range. Throw Sigil on him and your first round of Chains, and he can't leap or stun. Then he gets rooted in place, and you throw a mimic'd Chains on him, and he's rooted for more than long enough for whatever other ranged characters you have to finish him off, since you are still bursting him for a decent amount with only 2 regular Sigils.



LeBlanc is very valuable on Dominion, and it hurts to go against her as certain champs. In SR, you are right. Being able to super cc/burst one character down isn't as valuable in teamfights as say Orianna's or Annie's single aoe stun/burst, especially when you consider that when LeBlanc goes over 100 cs it's a miracle. But in the skirmish based Dominion, she excels and does quite nicely.


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Vangarde

Senior Member

10-09-2011

yorick is counter to ap shaco holding a point. Ghouls activate boxes and W can be cast over ground to activate.


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haaaaaaaalp

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10-09-2011

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Originally Posted by BigDaddyRelish View Post
Sorry but I have to hugely disagree here, at least for Dominion.

LeBlanc's main issue is her late game in SR, but this isn't attributed to poor scaling or anything like that like it usually is. It's a complete lack of ability to farm, and only one aoe ability that is mostly used as your escape as using Distortion to dive into a fight will inevitably get you killed before you can tp back to your port. With no items she can't scale so she is hugely dependent on snowballing hard to maintain her burst in SR, and no real aoe capabilities make teamfighting difficult for her

She is all about shutting down a single target. That is her entire design purpose, think about it. She can chain silence a target for up to 6 seconds if she chains her Sigil's correctly, or root for 4.4 seconds if she chooses to mimic Ethereal Chains instead of Sigil. And that is all complimenting her burst which has great scaling for the cd's.


That kind of cc isn't bad by any means. In Dominion, her inability to farm or teamfight don't matter, since Dominion is so much more of a skirmish map where you get huge amounts of gold for free. And when put against people like Jax or Akali, having the ability to make them effectively do nothing is a huge boon. Akali can't do anything when silenced, she can't shroud/ult/q/whatever. All she can do is auto-attack and her auto-attacks don't do **** really in comparison to other champs, even with the scaling from her passive.

And rooting Jax for 4.4 seconds makes his life miserable against anyone with range. Throw Sigil on him and your first round of Chains, and he can't leap or stun. Then he gets rooted in place, and you throw a mimic'd Chains on him, and he's rooted for more than long enough for whatever other ranged characters you have to finish him off, since you are still bursting him for a decent amount with only 2 regular Sigils.



LeBlanc is very valuable on Dominion, and it hurts to go against her as certain champs. In SR, you are right. Being able to super cc/burst one character down isn't as valuable in teamfights as say Orianna's or Annie's single aoe stun/burst, especially when you consider that when LeBlanc goes over 100 cs it's a miracle. But in the skirmish based Dominion, she excels and does quite nicely.
Do you play LeBlanc? While she might be a good counter to jax in theory, she fails pretty miserably in game. She cannot take down jax by herself. She needs to travel with an ally just to pick off jax alone. However, she contributes so little to a 2v2 that her gank squad will invariably die to the other team once the other team stops traveling solo.

Also, back to the point about using Leblanc as a "counter." Put any squishy hero in the place of jax or akali and they will invariably do worse. I don't see how you can use Leblanc to justify how much certain tanky heroes rape when all other heroes do worse against her (she is good if you, for some reason, have problems with someone like eve decapping everything).


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Hobocop

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10-09-2011

Quote:
1a. What champ(s) should you counter-pick for Akali?
1b. What items should you build to counter Akali, specifically beyond the obvious anti-stealth items?
1a. Tanky or burst characters with CC. Cho'gath, Blitzcrank, Kassadin, LeBlanc, Sion, and Garen all perform well against her. She gets wrecked so hard by silences it isn't even funny, and each of these characters have sufficient damage output to take her down before she becomes a problem.
1b. Odyn's Veil or general magic resist items. Nothing special.

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2a. What champ(s) should you counter-pick for Jax?
2b. What items should you build to counter Jax?
2a. Bursty characters with CC again. Ryze performs well, as his constant output of magic damage and root spam causes Jax to both be unable to deal damage and lose stacks on his ultimate. Cho'gath is another good pick, especially when built with some AP to make his True damage burst really hurt. Vayne with the proper positioning to lane a Condemn stun and Sword of the Divine can bring him down fairly quickly. Characters with attack speed debuffs are also quite good. Malphite, Gragas, and Nasus come to mind here.

2b. Sword of the Divine for DPS characters obviously. DFG for AP characters since Jax players tend to skimp on real defensive items for a bit. Defensively, Randuin's Omen and Frozen Heart to bring down his attack speed and make it harder for him to keep ultimate stacks up, and Odyn's Veil for his magic damage burst.

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3a. What champ(s) should you counter-pick for Shaco?
3b. What items should you build to counter Shaco?
3a. Anyone with some kind of ranged ability to clear boxes safely. Tankiness a plus. All these melee and bruisers with zero ranged abilities that everyone loves to play get completely wrecked by Shaco. CC a plus to prevent him from escaping, and burst damage to kill him before he gets away. Strong pushers help to clear box nests on control points, as do characters with AoE abilities. Cho'gath and Galio are both good picks. Yorick performs very well with his infinite supply of lemmings to pop boxes.

3b. Hextech Sweeper for AP characters to sweep bushes where he's trolling around. Oracle's for clearing boxes around in more visible areas. Odyn's Veil to cut down on his damage output.


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BigDaddyDelish

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10-09-2011

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Originally Posted by haaaaaaaalp View Post
Do you play LeBlanc? While she might be a good counter to jax in theory, she fails pretty miserably in game. She cannot take down jax by herself. She needs to travel with an ally just to pick off jax alone. However, she contributes so little to a 2v2 that her gank squad will invariably die to the other team once the other team stops traveling solo.

Also, back to the point about using Leblanc as a "counter." Put any squishy hero in the place of jax or akali and they will invariably do worse. I don't see how you can use Leblanc to justify how much certain tanky heroes rape when all other heroes do worse against her (she is good if you, for some reason, have problems with someone like eve decapping everything).
Actually I do play LeBlanc, she is my 2nd most played just behind Riven (who is my favorite character at this point. ). I'm not making up my success, and honestly I'm amazed you think LeBlanc is so bad since she has always excelled at small scale battle.

Of course she can't 1v1 Jax, nobody can. That's why I said against Jax, you just root him for 4 and a half seconds and have someone else with range help you beat his ass before he can do anything. You still get good burst off since you can get 2 proc'd Sigil's in during this combo, and it's not like Ethereal Chains does laughable damage, and while by itself it may not kill Jax with a partner Jax even with help nearby has a much harder time doing his thing. In practice this strategy vs characters like Jax have been really helping my team and I a ton.


And how on Earth does she not contribute to a 2v2? Provided you aren't a ****ty LeBlanc, having such long duration cc along with sizeable burst in small scale battle is extremely valuable. In 5v5 not so much since you can only cc/burst one person at a time and she relies on combos to keep that character cc'd (bveil hurts SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much), she isn't as strong since aoe is king of SR, but in Dominion how is this kind of control not valuable?


LeBlanc isn't the end-all be all champion of Dominion, but a well played LeBlanc can really put a damper on some of the more problematic champions people seem to be having trouble with. Especially Akali.


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coffeerox

Senior Member

10-10-2011

Interesting thread. I like to see that people are asking questions and trying to come up with solutions instead of making threads that complain about the champs.

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1a. What champ(s) should you counter-pick for Akali?
Champs with AOE ability work great on Akali. Of the characters I own, Wukong, Garen, Riven, Xin Zhao, Xerath counter Akali.

Wukong can wait until Akali does her shroud, then you pop his ultimate to hit her right under her shroud, plus it CC's her to guarantee that she does not escape.

Garen can do his Judgment to force Akali to move out of her shroud or else she risk taking 1000's of damage (provided you built Garen for damage)

Riven can hit her Ki Burst and Broken Wings blindly because they are AOE. You don't know where she is, but if Akali doesn't move, she will take a lot of damage.

Xin Zhao counters Akali simply by not letting her attack in the first place. His Q knocks her up, not allowing her to get her burst and if she shrouds when she comes back down, hit your ultimate blindly to hit her. His ultimate is an AOE. Buy an early Lightbringer (which btw work for Wukong and many others as well) and you can get the jump + score a kill on Akali EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Xerath counters Akali simply by nuking that spot over and over. If she doesn't run out, she dies.

Another champ I have that counters Akali (albeit, w/ the required Hextech Sweeper), is LeBlanc. With a Sweeper, I can drop it right on Akali's shroud and blow her up. I *could* double Distortion blindly but the Sweeper works so well I don't need to.
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1b. What items should you build to counter Akali, specifically beyond the obvious anti-stealth items?
Beyond the obvious anti-stealth items such as Oracles or Lightbringer/Sweeper, you will want to go for Magic Resist. This shuts her down cold and quite frankly, makes fights against tanky DPS VERY tough. On Tanky DPS's, I take a Mercury's Treads followed by Hexdrinker. Usually this is enough to deal with Akali but if not, you can buy a Odyn's Veil. Odyn's Veil has an active that returns damage dealt to you. When building MR, you will want to think building offensive and defensive at the same time. For example, if I'm playing Xin Zhao or Warwick, I'll want to build a Mercury's Treads and combine it with a Wit's End and a piece of armor like Spirit Visage (on WW, it's a must-have) Hexdrinker and Abyssal Scepter has both offensive and defensive stats.
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2a. What champ(s) should you counter-pick for Jax?
AP champs with high burst directly counters Jax. On Crystal Scar, you get a 5% Magic Penetration so his ultimate doesn't really do much for him. Combo that with a Void Staff if you really are worried about your spells not doing enough. Personally, I use LeBlanc to counter Jax. Yes, I can even 1v1 him and win. I'll get to that later.

If you want to go the melee route, then AS champs also counter Jax. Buy a Sword of the Divine and it's light's out for him. I recently destroyed a Jax with Vayne and Sword of the Divine. Playing AS champs against Jax are tougher than playing AP because you gotta stay on top of your damage output to drop him during SotD's active. Run Exhaust to guarantee that Jax does not make it out alive.

Riven is one of the few non-AS, AD champs that counters Jax because he can't block abilities. She also has a stun so every time he jumps, he gets stuck.
2b. What items should you build to counter Jax?

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3a. What champ(s) should you counter-pick for Shaco?
Champs with AOE capability will make it tough for Shaco because he can't clone out and trick you since the AOE will hit both the real one and the fake one. Makes it easy to identify which is the real target since he will start running away.
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3b. What items should you build to counter Shaco?
I don't really know the answer to this because most times I've went up against a competent AD Shaco, I couldn't win the fight. Thornmail hardly does anything although I've heard that you have to back that piece with some HP for it to be truly effective. Randuin's Omen can be very effective and of the fights I've won, were the times that I had this item. On AS champs you buy a lightbringer to ensure that he doesn't run away from you. If you don't have any form of stealth detection, he can slip away pretty easily. For AP, you can pop Hextech Sweeper when he's low on life, that will help you stop any attempts to clone out and stealth.


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Of course she can't 1v1 Jax, nobody can.
My LeBlanc can 1v1 Jax. You build a Deathfire Grasp with about 440AP. With 400AP, Deathfire Grasp deals 44% of his HP right off the bat. Then nuke him down and he's dead. This also works similarly for any tanky character and it makes tanks fear you.


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Mysterage

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10-10-2011

1a. What champ(s) should you counter-pick for Akali?
1b. What items should you build to counter Akali, specifically beyond the obvious anti-stealth items?

1a: There is no counter to Akali. She is OP. It is quite evident now in the field of of Crystal Scar just how hard and easily she snowballs an entire team. It's not rumor that any Akali in game will most always score 1st on the scoreboards, she's just too good, and strong. She was easily able to burst down my Cho'Gath, no matter how many stacks of Feast I had up. Because of passive spell vamp, silencing her for even a second or two is useless, as all she has to do is run away, then come back once it's run out, and nukes you down, regaining any hp damage she took. She not only needs a hard CC to stop, but a silence to prevent her from just easily escaping via Shroud (IMO the most OP feature for her.) If I cared to own her, I might be able to learn a lot easier ways to counter her. (Though in general, I don't purchase OP/unbalanced champions. Got Xerath though, great example of an actual balanced champion. "Aw **** ult is on cooldown, got jumped by a melee! I's dead.") The only champion I could see countering her is a Jax, or Shaco funnily enough. Jax for being durable enough to survive her onslaught, stun her and dish out more damage than she can, and Shaco for being slippery enough to whittle her down, trick, trap, box her, whatever till she either flees or dies.
1b: There are no items to counter her beyond Hextech Sweeper. Oracle's is just asking for her to have you be the one she is head hunting, and you just wasted 400 gold once she's done dropping you. With the removal of Banshee's Veil for balance reasons, Odyn's Veil just doesn't cut it in terms of granting enough MR to keep her from murderizing your face. I will soon test a full out anti MR build to see if that shuts her down hard enough, and if it does I'll consider that one of the ways in which she can be countered.

2a. What champ(s) should you counter-pick for Jax?
2b. What items should you build to counter Jax?

2a: Any AP caster. ANY. Jax's ultimate can only keep him up for so long. If you can distract him, slow him down, stun him, anything, he's super easy to nuke down. Teemo is an easy pick to counter him, with Blind. Also Tryndamere, or Pantheon, for being able to build or be tough/tanky enough to survive his attacks and do him in. Warwick once he gets the right items will (no pun intended) eat a Jax alive.
2b: Thornmail. More Jax attacks = more Jax hurts.

3a. What champ(s) should you counter-pick for Shaco?
3b. What items should you build to counter Shaco?

3a: AP or AD Shaco? Shaco is actually not the largest threat in a Dominion game, just the most annoying, if you let him be. He's so squishy, he blows up with most any sort of concentrated fire. Any long range hero can poke and harass him like crazy, and just remember to not follow him into the mid, where he likely has box traps, or other allies waiting to gank. Pretty much any beefy/tanky hero can counter Shaco, so long as they can get close to him. He can only burst so much, until he's dogmeat.
3b: Any regular items used in your build order. The only time I'd consider building an item against Shaco is if he were totally AP, and was somehow a master tactician in placing several boxes at key locations throughout the map. Then, I may consider some MR.

There you go. How to beat & counter 2/3 Dominion champs. Some of them can be countered by more specific skills/spells, but I'm not going to get into that now.

EDIT: Love how I get downvoted for sharing my experience, opinions, and advice with people. Next time I'll just keep my mouth shut.


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Mindllapse

Senior Member

10-10-2011

if you can't handle a shaco without counterpicking champs just uninstall this game


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Kyunas

Senior Member

10-10-2011

So there is no real counter to jax. Most people say you need 2v1 to beat a jax. That means if there were 5 champs like jax, you would need 10 Champs in your team to beat them. I still think its not jax who is OP. Items are OP on some Champions. Hextech Gunblade gives everything Jax or Akali needs to beat anyone 1v1. Jax and Akali are the one's that make the most profit of that item. Everytime Hextech Gunblade got buffed, Akali, Jax and maybe Kayle a bit got buffed secretly.