AP Shaco breaks Dominion.

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AnemoneMeer

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Senior Member

10-02-2011

Now, just a disclaimer, I'm not calling AP Shaco OP, quite frankly, he's still horrible in Summoner's rift, and AP Shaco is still a troll build anywhere but Dominion, and only works if the team with him has Windmill.

However, he still breaks the mode in terms of balance.

Shaco, or to be more specific, AP Shaco, is balanced, and infact incredibly underpowered against any competant team because they know where he will be putting his instant death trap, and because you can build against it, in Summoners Rift that is. In Dominion, AP boxspam Shaco can sit on windmill for ages and not worry.

Lets assume a game in which AP Shaco's team has the points on their side of the map, and Windmill. AP Shaco is defending top, with Boxes positioned to block the health kit from either side, as well as the bottom path. The rest of his boxes are positioned around the capture point itself. Shaco himself has Lichbane, Deathcap, CDR boots, and 15% CDR from runes/masteries. Normal AP Shaco stuff, nothing unusual.

If you approach the point with Oracles extract and start clearing the boxes on your way as a ranged character, his team can easily reinforce him, and he will simply continue dropping boxes to stall you, perhaps engaging you, dropping a box on you, and attacking you, if you get close to the point. The danger isn't in you getting instantly killed at this point so much as it is the fact that he is stalling for a decent amount of time without putting himself in danger. Effectively defending the point akin to Heimer, without the ability to move away, and with higher potential damage. Not exactly fun to play against, but not OP.

You come as a team. Destroy the boxes, Shaco flees past the boxes on the other side and gets away, several boxes still blocking you from chasing him and blocking a few paths. If you don't chase, it's fine, if you do, you die passing through the boxes he had on the other side of the point. Not OP, but again, not remotely fun. He got away with no punishment.

You push minions to the point. a very small amount of boxes pop, the minions die regardless, 90% of the boxes are still up, and if it starts having any real impact on the point, and while you're doing that, your team is still having to deal with the rest of his team for long periods without you. And if you render the point neutral, he can sit behind his wall of boxes and cap it back. And you still can't get close enough to stop him from doing this.

You play a melee. AP shaco beats you effortlessly you attack his point. Every time. Not remotely fun, but gives him a notable niche.

So, given these situations, what we know is that regardless of what you do, you still have to spend extra time killing his boxes before you advance on the point, or you'll die. You can't really stop him from getting the farm AP Shaco needs, and you can't really kill him unless you CC him 100-0. And this is before we mention his clone interrupting captures while he runs, or anything else.

Hemier is obnoxious on dominion, because his turrets let him defend points very well. However, he has a limited amount of turrets, and his hard CC is a dodgable skillshot. Shaco demands you buy Oracles Extract to be able to seige his point, and has a much more effective escape than Heimer. Heimer can attack points better, but is generally at a greater risk of being killed, while Shaco demands buying a certain item to even be able to attack his point, and still outright destroys any melee character who pushes on his point.

Basically, AP Shaco, on Crystal Scar, is nearly impossiible to push on without either having him stall you long enough for a competent enemy team to show up (including shaco), pushing on the point only for him to get away with no punishment and while your team is away, kills you 1v1, almost kills you 1v1 then escapes past his wall of boxes, or simply kills you because your team is melee. I'm not sure if he is OP or not on the map, as he can't attack very well, and is forced into sitting on a single point all game, but it is still utterly impossible to attack a point he defends effectively.

TL : DR. Shaco may not be OP, but he is incredibly fustrating to play against on Crystal Scar.

Edited to include minion push.


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ashkon77

Senior Member

10-02-2011

push the minions, and they set off the boxes. AP shaco is now a sad panda.


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AnemoneMeer

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10-02-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashkon77 View Post
push the minions, and they set off the boxes. AP shaco is now a sad panda.
Sets off some of the boxes, not all. If he set all the boxes in a single position, he deserves that fate. If he spread them around the point properly, pushing the minions will only kill a small few of them.

Even then, he's still stalling you while his team comes.


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ashkon77

Senior Member

10-02-2011

he doesn't need to set them all off. You can still cap the point, or the minions will, since boxes are his only way to kill minions, and once the minions are there you can't do much. If his team comes then your team is at a disadvantage using 2+ people to stop one pusher. AP shaco can't stop a minion push by himself.


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AnemoneMeer

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10-02-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashkon77 View Post
he doesn't need to set them all off. You can still cap the point, or the minions will, since boxes are his only way to kill minions, and once the minions are there you can't do much. If his team comes then your team is at a disadvantage using 2+ people to stop one pusher. AP shaco can't stop a minion push by himself.
Actually, he can, and does. One box can significantly stall and/or stop a single minion wave past a certain point in the game. Shiv can kill or almost kill another minion, he still has a safe place to retreat to.

Minion push is the best tactic, yes, but he still has at least some tools to counter it.


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ashkon77

Senior Member

10-02-2011

yes, he can delay it, but he can't stop it completely. And one box can't stop a minion wave, it might kill 3 or 4 minions at most, but minions waves push w/ 8-10 minions. His shiv might kill 1 minion. Minions in dominion are much stronger than they are in SR. Also, if he tries to place a box on top of the minions, you can easily just kill it because newly spawned boxes are easily to kill.


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ashkon77

Senior Member

10-02-2011

Have you played AP shaco before and had to deal with a pusher? You wouldn't really know how hopeless it is for AP shaco to defend a push unless you have experienced it yourself.


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Hobocop

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10-02-2011

When he's facing melee, it depends on the melee. A lot of melee characters have some kind of good ranged ability. Galio and Cho'gath for example, can clear box nests quite safely, especially with a Hextech Sweeper on the suspect control point. Both characters are also strong pushers.


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AnemoneMeer

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10-02-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashkon77 View Post
yes, he can delay it, but he can't stop it completely. And one box can't stop a minion wave, it might kill 3 or 4 minions at most, but minions waves push w/ 8-10 minions. His shiv might kill 1 minion. Minions in dominion are much stronger than they are in SR. Also, if he tries to place a box on top of the minions, you can easily just kill it because newly spawned boxes are easily to kill.
So, he killed 5 of the 8 minion wave push, this leaves 3 to attack the tower, which is a very minor number. The next set of minions collides with yours, and he places a box in the way, back behind the current lines of combat. 8 more minions push, he picks off 5 again, and the process repeats itself.

Assuming the point is then neutralised by repeatedly doing this, he stands opposite the minions, with his box back in the way, and recaptures it. If you do it long enough, his boxes WILL despawn, but we're assuming nobody ever comes to help duing the 5 minutes you're seiging him.


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Sing a Ming

Senior Member

10-02-2011

Promote and sweeper.