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Items Riot will never make.

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axesandspears

Senior Member

10-02-2011

Quote:
Vuther:
Karthus would become press R to die, yeah.


Imagine Veigar, Brand, "champion with aoe here" managing to hit an entire team after they took this item. It would be almost impossible to avoid getting yourself damaged or killed as a mage trying to damage something.


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N0vaFlame

Senior Member

10-02-2011

Fiddle, Kennen, Nunu, and to a lesser extent galio would hate this too...


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PhailRaptor

Adjudicator

10-02-2011

Quote:
Vuther:
"AD Deathcap" brings the wrong connotations. It's an item intended for AD Casters, rather than "your attack damage is really 100%+X%". It is unlikely it will use such an effect unless it only affected ability damage, because the item is not for the autoattackers.


Honestly, the "AD casters" need to stop crying and realize that they have a 5th nuke with a very short cooldown -- their auto-attack. True, landing more than one in rapid succession is unlikely to happen, but if you've landed your other 4, what's stopping you from at least landing 1 auto-attack?

Really, Deathcap itself is a problem that needs to be dealt with. AP values on many of the other top items need to be increased, and the % amplification removed from Deathcap, because right now if you don't have one you merely tickle. This also makes any new AP items added problematic, due to the fact that they will all be secondary to the "must have" Deathcap, but by the time a champion can afford their Deathcap AND whatever the new item is, the new item is likely obsolete (mid game items) or just icing on the cake (fat nuker is very fat, game is already over basically).


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DreamsOfGrandeur

Senior Member

10-02-2011

The main thing that needs to be said for this forum is that League of Legends is not a RPG.

In MMORPGs, it's often alright to release a sort of crazy items because the feelings and experience of a mob or environment mechanic does not need to be taken into consideration.

In a MMO-MOBA/RTS, the other players have to be considered, as well as the architecture of the strategy aspect in its entirety.
So before suggesting an item, one must consider how it feels to fight against a character with [insert suggested item] and how that item fits in with all the current existing items too.


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Vuther

Senior Member

10-03-2011

Quote:
PhailRaptor:
Honestly, the "AD casters" need to stop crying and realize that they have a 5th nuke with a very short cooldown -- their auto-attack. True, landing more than one in rapid succession is unlikely to happen, but if you've landed your other 4, what's stopping you from at least landing 1 auto-attack?

Itemization is pretty rough for them. Pantheon, for example, consists of a hard choice between getting durability to ensure their mediocre autoattacks have a chance to make up for not being able to nuke their target down, or getting more attack damage to avoid getting to that point.

Besides, they should have better itemization, since their choices outside of Last Whisper consist of "Which of these choices are the least worse?" instead of "Which of these choices are the best for my situation?" like everyone else. It's weird gameplay.


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axesandspears

Senior Member

10-03-2011

Quote:
Vuther:
Itemization is pretty rough for them. Pantheon, for example, consists of a hard choice between getting durability to ensure their mediocre autoattacks have a chance to make up for not being able to nuke their target down, or getting more attack damage to avoid getting to that point.

Besides, they should have better itemization, since their choices outside of Last Whisper consist of "Which of these choices are the least worse?" instead of "Which of these choices are the best for my situation?" like everyone else. It's weird gameplay.


You can build an ad caster around improving their auto-attack in addition to survivability though. Black cleaver is not a bad item for them, neither is Ghostblade. I think the problem is that ad casters get into this mindset that they are "just" mages, and that's really the wrong idea.

Speaking of which, even if you have long cooldowns on an ap caster, lichebane is still good and provides a lot of extra damage, there is no reason why they couldn't take it or should consider it a bad item. It practically makes you both a mage and an ad caster, and your game should be better for it.


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Vuther

Senior Member

10-03-2011

Quote:
axesandspears:
You can build an ad caster around improving their auto-attack in addition to survivability though. Black cleaver is not a bad item for them, neither is Ghostblade. I think the problem is that ad casters get into this mindset that they are "just" mages, and that's really the wrong idea.

Speaking of which, even if you have long cooldowns on an ap caster, lichebane is still good and provides a lot of extra damage, there is no reason why they couldn't take it or should consider it a bad item. It practically makes you both a mage and an ad caster, and your game should be better for it.

I used to think that, but I really haven't found it doesn't. Black Cleaver is no good on Garen, Urgot and Pantheon since they'd prefer to have the armour penetration up front and Urgot generally shouldn't be AA range and instead be spamming Q from afar - maybe you'll do that if the enemy comes to you. Lee Sin, Riven and Renekton have enough space to use their autoattacks and a more sustained damage type to make it better. Ghostblade is a problem as well for them, and most of the other AD casters since it's active, which is balanced around its 8 second duration for melee attackers, is largely wasted on most. Lee Sin prefers to do enough casting to make the most of his passive, leaving it likely you're going to waste part of the attack speed from casting. Riven casts in between autoattacks, making attack speed fairly moot. Garen's interruption of his autoattacks with Judgement means you should avoid additional CDR to make the most of Ghostblade's active not wasted because you're better off casting Judgement again in the duration - which is weird since it's good for him.
Pantheon can get a pretty low CDR with Shurelya's and Ghostblade - once again, making it turn out he'll waste part of the latter's active.
Like I said before, Urgot generally doesn't want to be in AA range.

Honestly, I'd be ok with more options that happen to help the AA's of the AD casters bit. If they brought in critical strike scaling for more of them, Ghostblade would be much less dubious.

But whether you feel the current options are balanced for them or not, I would still say the gameplay surrounding the choices for AD casters are insufficiently clear in use compared to everyone else.
Tanks build majorly armour, magic resistance, health and choose which ever they feel is currently the priority to their survival.
Mages probably get the Deathcap, but still have more interesting options which feel perfectly decent for them - cool passives, cooldown reduction options, and a few neat actives.
Autoattackers have a wealth of options to a variety of situations - damage, attack speed, lifesteal, and a bunch of passive and active abilities which work good on them.
AD casters...try to find what's the least worst for their gold to be spent. Autoattackers, mages and tanks don't have the conundrum on their item choices of "This has a stat I need, and another which could be...ok, I guess...". Their current options just don't feel like the game was fully completed with them in mind. Maybe they are balanced, I don't know. But choosing items as them still doesn't feel as right as it should.


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clear world

Senior Member

10-03-2011

I agree with the lack of high AP items that forces Deathcap to be the core for all offensive mages. It's a problem but it would take so much adjusting to fix so I don't see any changes in the near future.

And I agree that the item choice for AD caster at times is awkward and at times feel disappointing because there isn't much clear item paths. I want to suggest something but don't want to because most AD caster are perfectly viable currently even without a good core item for them.

On a side note, you think Riot will ever make an Anti-AoE item? It's just been on my mind recently since more AoE champions are being made.


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Vuther

Senior Member

10-03-2011

Quote:
clear world:
On a side note, you think Riot will ever make an Anti-AoE item? It's just been on my mind recently since more AoE champions are being made.

The concept is probably a bad idea - AoE damage is balanced on the basis it can hit multiple targets (thus, being inferior in certain ways to comparable single-target damage options). If an item becomes available to counter it, there's the problem it could easily be too hard of a counter - if one person has an item to counter the AoE spells, it reduces the value of it being an AoE ability significantly because one of your targets has an effect which makes your ability be bad against them according to the very concept of the ability. It would go against the very purpose of the ability - to hit multiple targets. What's the point of hitting multiple targets if they can get an item that says "You have AoE, so your ability should be worse.". It'd be like Thornmail, except you can't counter it by saving the target holding it for last, or getting armour penetration, magic resistance and lifesteal.

If you feel too many AoE options are overpowered, I would suggest just nerfing those options rather than create an item which, in my mind, doesn't create good gameplay.


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clear world

Senior Member

10-03-2011

Quote:
Vuther:
The concept is probably a bad idea - AoE damage is balanced on the basis it can hit multiple targets (thus, being inferior in certain ways to comparable single-target damage options). If an item becomes available to counter it, there's the problem it could easily be too hard of a counter - if one person has an item to counter the AoE spells, it reduces the value of it being an AoE ability significantly because one of your targets has an effect which makes your ability be bad against them according to the very concept of the ability. It would go against the very purpose of the ability - to hit multiple targets. What's the point of hitting multiple targets if they can get an item that says "You have AoE, so your ability should be worse.". It'd be like Thornmail, except you can't counter it by saving the target holding it for last, or getting armour penetration, magic resistance and lifesteal.

If you feel too many AoE options are overpowered, I would suggest just nerfing those options rather than create an item which, in my mind, doesn't create good gameplay.


Well, when I was thinking of it, I was like thinking that the holder of the Anti-AoE item would take reduce damage, not that the dealer was now do less damage just because someone was holding the item. It's not like it's negating the effect 100%, the champion holding the item is still taking damage, just less, as if they were holding more MR or Armor. You make it sound like not hitting the champion is the better choice, which in my opinion doesn't create that effect.

I mean, I don't think it's that bad. For instance, ur the tanky DPS of the team and your just trying to protect your squishier champions. In most cases, the AoE damage dealer isn't aiming at you but at the squishy but you just get hit because ur nearby trying to protect them.

And another case, ur opponent is filled with AoE team, like for example: gailo, fiddlesticks, mf, xin, and orinna (I actually faced a team like this once during a 5 premade team and got murdered in team fights). They all cast their AoE spell to kill ur team without much time to react. AoE ultimates are very game changers for team fights.

They also tend to be roughly the same damage level of single target spells, really not much different when I look at them. Some non-ultimate may lack hard CC, but many still provides soft CC.

Lastly, I don't think AoE champions are overpowered, I think when teams stack them, they are overpowered (but requires good teamwork to pull off well).