@Reds - Dominion Ranked in Season 2?

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Phourc

Senior Member

12-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaIfhearted View Post
It would be GREAT if we could at least get an official statement on the matter.
If it's not going to happen ever, just tell us so we can stop asking.
Wasn't that this? :

Quote:
Originally Posted by Purpleskoal View Post
Well, most people have been begging for ranked ladder for quite awhile.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
This is a myth I want to address right now so we don't have to talk about this any more. I've said many times that there's a lack of causation here for many reasons.

1. Ranked makes up a negligible amount of our playerbase for SR and TT. The vast majority of our players do not play ranked, and have displayed no intention to.
2. Now, the argument can be made that the LACK of ranked has negative implications like discouraging organized play and competitive interest. But this is where we run into the causation issue.

I'm very well aware that the Dominion community wants ranked real bad--I do too. No really, I do! I stick up for you guys because I'm passionate about Dominion getting attention. I have my own reasons and intentions, but first and foremost I believe it's an important step to community stabilization. But don't use it as a scapegoat for why the mode is unpopular, because you're assuming causation when #1 (and I'm fully aware you guys don't have access to the statistics) speaks quite to the contrary.


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Beezil

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Senior Member

12-26-2012

Season 3 and still no Ranked Dominion or Duo queue... Dominion is the red-headed stepchild of Riot.


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NamKim

Senior Member

12-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by suddenZenith View Post
@ NamKim

The thing is normal dominion could be casual mode and ranked could be more competitive. At the moment casuals are mixed with competitive at lower elo which is not great.
The first part I agree with. I support the idea of "Blind" be casual while "Draft" be "Ranked." I don't see anything wrong with that. At the very least, Riot doing that for a patch or two might be a good way to gather up data.

Quote:
There is a dedicated competitive community for dominion, I find it pretty sad that they can't have some kind of competitive environment. League of legends is a balanced pvp game, you can't keep competition out of it. Might as well embrace it and give us a ranked matchmaking.
I recognized that there is a competitive community for Dominion. I think that Riot should try to cater to the more competitive community of Dominion. At the very least, it would make RiotNome's job of gathering data for balancing a lot easier. Morello has the luxury of having the entire ranked community to gather data from along with skilled test players that work for Riot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaIfhearted View Post
@NamKim since when did I EVERY say that ranked should be the *only* mode in Dom?
You didn't. But the guy I was replying to did. It justifies why Riot made it so you couldn't see hidden elo and why Riot won't simply allow Dominion players to see their hidden elo. If we cannot understand Riot's point of view then we are just little kids complaining about a toy we're not getting. We need to recognize Riot's point of view and tell them maturely why we believe their logic is flawed. Once Rioters feel comfortable with our level of maturity, then they will feel more comfortable telling us stuff.

This is the reason why Rioters cannot tell us stuff anymore. Remember Magma Chamber? Riot worked on it and decided that it was moving in the wrong direction and turned it into Dominion, a move I am grateful for. Instead of playing Dominion and trying to see what this map has to offer, people quickly judged it to be bad. Even to this very day, whenever someone makes a Dominion thread in GD, you will get a handful of people saying "I would have preferred Magma Chamber."

Quote:
suddenZenith has it right, we would have normal blind pick for the "for fun" guys and ranked for people who want to seriously compete with others or want to track their standing compared to their peers.
I agree with this idea. I mean, Draft Dominion probably isn't doing so well as it is. So, why not turn it into ranked? At the very least, kind a Rioter give us stats on how well Draft Dominion really is doing?

Quote:
Right now Riot hasn't even given our competitive-spirited Dominion players an environment to thrive, so people like myself who want to play seriously are *forced* to play normal blind pick with all the non-commpetitive guys.
Even if it is not ranked, I wish that Rioter would do more for the competitive Dominion community. Any PvP online game that does not have some environment for the competitive crowd would be considered bad. I have friends who play nothing but Ranked SR. Granted that they shoudn't play Ranked and they totally deserve to be in elo hell, despite what they say. But even through they totally suck at the game, they are competitive and want to be part of the competitive crowd.

Quote:
Draft is dead, so don't even try to bring that up.
If I could get a guaranteed draft pop within even 40 minutes, I'd play the hell out of draft.
Sadly, I can't.
Which is why I support the idea of just turning Draft into Ranked.

Quote:
We need a ranked solo/duo queue environment, and that is why I'm bumping this thread.
Agreed.

Guys, don't misunderstand what I'm trying to say. I do my best to expand on why things are the way they are. When I reply to one person, I am not targeting everyone. But the idea of turning Dominion into purely ranked has been brought out before which is why I felt the need to clear up the issue.

I agree with RiotNome that Ranked will not magically solve everything. I do think it is a step in the right direction since it would be easier to see how competitive people play. I also feel that it would make "Featured Games" better to watch for those who wants to see Dominion games. When you see a Featured Dominion Game, and see that both sides have the same champion, you know this is blind pick. This only lowers Dominion's legitimacy in other's eyes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beezil View Post
Season 3 and still no Ranked Dominion or Duo queue... Dominion is the red-headed stepchild of Riot.
Season 3 hasn't started yet. It is still the pre-season. Although, I am against the idea that Riot did not disable Ranked queue for SR or TT. Not only that, but they are counting it towards season 3. In a way, this kind of supports our cause since it shows that Riot recognizes that SR and TT needs competitive Ranked, even during the pre-season, to remain popular.

One thing I do want to bring up is RiotNome saying that "1. Ranked makes up a negligible amount of our playerbase for SR and TT. The vast majority of our players do not play ranked, and have displayed no intention to." How would one get this stat? Do they just randomly ask players if they want Ranked Dominion?


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radicalratx

Senior Member

12-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by NamKim View Post
Ah, this is one of those things that Riot does reply to in detail. Next to IronStylus's essay on Female Sexualization and flipping tables for something (which is odd considering GD makes a bigger deal about stuff that are not as important and wasn't even an issue until a few a weeks ago...no, seriously, GD complains about so many things and so many of them are small stuff that Riot occasionally talks about vaguely. We have been wanting ranked Dominion since the beginning and Rioters don't even talk about it vaguely).

The reason is because even if you play to win, you kind of want a mode where you can really relax in. For a lot of people, they want the highest elo they can get. If you knew every game counted towards your publicly visible elo, you would try hard every game and rarely get the chance to experiment.

For example, I really respect TheFeedski. Say that Dominion is purely ranked now. I ask TheFeedski if he could play with me. He would probably say no because I am considerably less skilled than he is. The game would be frustrating since he is playing with significantly less skilled players.

For an example in an example, an "Example-ception," imaging you were an ADC on SR. Your support is less experienced and barely knows the basic of supporting. He buy wards, but rarely uses them for not knowing where to place them. He lacks map awareness. He also does not know how to harass the enemies without getting killed himself. The support is not a bad person, s/he is genuinely trying their best. But for you, it's a frustrating experience since you know if you lose, you lose elo. This eventually makes you into a try-hard and you will probably lash out at the support eventually.

The problem is that when you play ranked, your mentality changes.

A lot of this came from Zileas, who was a pro-level/professional Starcraft player back in the day. He mentioned that he played more "fun matches" that didn't affect his ladder ranking than ladder matches. I think he said it was a 2:1 ratio between the two.

So, Riot will never do what you suggested since they really did think that through. They even did an entire patch to remove the ability to see hidden elo. You know during that massive server issue that lasted days during Father's Day? I'm almost convinced that Riot was trying to make it so you couldn't see your hidden elo but referred it as "weakness in their security." If I'm right, Riot went that far just to prevent people from looking up hidden elo.

To be honest, I may support the cause of getting Riot to implement ranked, but I would probably not play ranked a whole lot since I am a casual gamer who will always prefer a loss with fun people, than a win with rude people.

You could say that custom games could be the "screw around" mode. But the whole point of the matchmaking system is that you are placed into teams where you should technically have a 50% chance of winning. I made a pre-made game with TheFeedski and three of my friends (haha, I don't have friends...I'm sad now...). The other team is made up with regulars of the DD Tournaments...a little exaggerated, but gets the point across.

tl;dr: Riot likes the idea of having a casual normal mode. Which is why they made that patch so lolmatches could no longer get our hidden elos.

Very well-thought out reply. However, as I've mentioned, there are a TON of online games that have visible ratings, and they seem to be doing just fine.

My main suggestion includes moving non-ranked Dominion into custom games where people can go to chill.


Or even better, as a poster above me mentioned, change Draft mode into ranked and leave blind pick as unranked.


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WaterD103

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Senior Member

12-27-2012

Riot already stated as clear as they can that there will be no ranked. Some people around seem to deny this until riot write in the sky with a plane.
"There is no gonna be ranked ever ever ever ever ever no matter what" and until such ridiculous thing happening, not accept that it won't be happening.
At this point you can accept the truth, that nome already adressed that there won't be ranked, or keep delusional and think that riot didn't state that there won't be ranked because you didn't get a personal mail in font 72 that there will be no ranked.


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HaIfhearted

Senior Member

12-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by WaterD103 View Post
Riot already stated as clear as they can that there will be no ranked. Some people around seem to deny this until riot write in the sky with a plane.
"There is no gonna be ranked ever ever ever ever ever no matter what" and until such ridiculous thing happening, not accept that it won't be happening.
At this point you can accept the truth, that nome already adressed that there won't be ranked, or keep delusional and think that riot didn't state that there won't be ranked because you didn't get a personal mail in font 72 that there will be no ranked.
Here's the thing.
If there isn't going to be ranked, we at LEAST want Riot to just be truthful and say so.

As long as Riot remains silent, there will be people who remain at least somewhat hopeful.
Not everyone is a pessimist, you know?


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WaterD103

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Senior Member

12-27-2012

I'm an optimistic guy, yet, the evidence is clear. Nome said that the population is bleeding, nome also said that the population size doesn't justify the resource investment into ranked.
That means that unless the population increase massively, there won't be ranked.
Unless there is any evidence to support the hypothesis that the dominion population will grow significantly, there is no reason to think there is ever going to be ranked, specially when it's been reported that the population not only stopped to grow, but is shrinking.

So it has nothing to do with optimism or pessimism , it's just a read of the facts.

Edit: Do not expect riot to be direct and honest and truthfully, one of the reason riot managed to be so successfull is because they have an A+ Public relationship policy, A+ public relationship policy are the opposite of honest and truthfully (ask any politician or businessman or any person that works on PR on any company)


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NamKim

Senior Member

12-27-2012

Riot's biggest fault is their inability to raise hype and use that momentum to actually get a big community going for it.

Quote:
Riot: "We are releasing a new 3v3 map"
Players: "Wow, this is awesome! A 3v3 map!!"
Players: "Oh, we found a bunch of balance problems that you might want to look into."
Riot: "Oh, okay, we'll fix them right away."
Players: "Riot, it's been like six month. Where are the balance fixes."
Riot: "Oh, they're coming, don't worry about it."
Players: "Riot, turtling is a massive problem. It's making games last for over an hour. 3v3 should be shorter games, but they're lasting longer than even Summoner's Rift games."
Riot: "Oh, we're working on a solution. Don't worry about it. Soon(tm)."
Players: "Riot's it's been over a year. We're just going back to Summoner's Rift."
Riot: "With TT's small bleeding community, we cannot justify putting too much resources into fixing TT's problems. Sorry. Your faults, not ours."
[Several months to years later]
Nome: "Riot, that's BS and you know it."
[4 months later]
Nome: I have created a completely new Twisted Treeline that fixes encourages a combat, a more useful jungle, alters to add some more strategies, and fixed the painful turtling problem. Balance is still a big issue due to this completely new map so it is still in Beta stage.
Players: "Too late. We've already decided to not go back to Twisted Treeline. Look at all these balance problems. Knowing Riot, they won't get fixed any time soon. Sorry Nome, your effort was for nothing."
Quote:
Riot: "So, we know that you guys really like League of Legends lore. So, we're removing Journal of Justice and Champion Judgement because we feel that we could do better telling the lore."
Players: "Oh, that's pretty cool. Keep us updated."
[several months later]
Players; "Riot, seriously, we want more lore. You release Jayce hoping to start some sort of rivalry with Viktor. But with no way of telling the story, you're just screwing over Viktor, a champion we loved."
Riot: "Oh, don't worry, the story's gonna be awesome. Our creative team are working really hard on it."
[several weeks later]
Riot: "Oh, we're gonna tell the lore through AMA. Which is a completely downgraded way of telling the lore and completely contradicts the reason why we cancelled Journal of Justice and Champion Judgments.
[several weeks later]
IronStylus: "OMG, Diana's gonna get released. And the story between Diana and Leona is so complex and awesome that you could write a book on it."
Players: "Oh, that would be cool...IF WE HAD A FRICKEN WAY TO READ THE LORE."
[several weeks later]
Players: "We give up Riot. There's no way you can go back and fix the lore now. The time has passed, the hype for these champions are gone."
IronStylus: "Oh, Nami is part of the lore between Leona and Diana!!"
Players: "oh, that would be cool...IF RIOT HAD WAY TO TELL US THE LORE!!"
Players: "seriously, we give up on the lore."
[in the future]
Riot: "Due to lack of support for the lore, we will now cancel the lore. Your fault for not showing interest in the lore, not ours."
Quote:
Riot: "So, we have this thing called Dominion. We had the last several issues of Journal of Justice foreshadowing the Crystal Scar. It's gonna be awesome. It's something no other MOBA did before. It's just gonna be pure awesome. It's gonna be completely combat oriented.
Players: "OMG, this is awesome!!"
[several days later]
Players: "Riot, we found some massive balance problems, you might want to look at them."
Riot: "Oh, okay, we'll fix them soon(tm)."
[several weeks later]
Players: "Seriously, fix these problems Riot.
Riot: "Oh, just give us more time, soon(tm).
Players: "Forget this. we're going back to Twisted Treeline. Oh, Twisted Treeline is still not getting any attention? Screw this, let's go back to Summoner's Rift."
[several weeks later]
Players: "Riot, Dominion matured up a little. We figured out these issues, it's more balanced than Twisted Treeline and they have ranked. Can we have ranked?"
Riot: "Oh, we want the map to mature a little more. We have it ready, just need to flip the switch."
Players: "fine."
[Several months later]
Players: "Forget this, Ranked is taking too long. Sorry guys, later."
Riot: "Due to Dominion's small and bleeding community, we cannot justify giving Dominion ranked. Sorry, your fault, not ours."
RiotNome: "Oh, most players don't want Ranked Dominion. We have the stats. No, you cannot see the stats. You just have to take my word for it. Even though a ton of people in GD say they would play Dominion if it had ranked, you just have to take my word for it. Also, the Jedi tried to take over the Republic so I'm now turning the Republic into the Empire. I killed off all the Jedi. I can't show you actual evidence for it, so you just have to take my word for it. Trust me, I'm a developer. Why would I lie to you? Just because Riot lied to you guys since the creation of Dominion, doesn't mean I would. I'm totally different from the rest of them."
Anyone else see the pattern here?

Edit: The last part about RiotNome was just for comedic effect. I do not actually think he's a Sith Lord.


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HaIfhearted

Senior Member

12-30-2012

I'm keeping this on the front page.


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Phourc

Senior Member

12-30-2012

No, it's:

Nome: "I have created a completely new Twisted Treeline that fixes encourages a combat, a more useful jungle, alters to add some more strategies, and fixed the painful turtling problem. Balance is still a big issue due to this completely new map so it is still in Beta stage."
Players: "Too late. We want the old one back. QQ Don't change our map!"