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Comebacks, what contributes?

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GrandBreaker

Senior Member

09-28-2011

Quote:
Shini Laser:
@Nideak:

Hate to put it this way, but claiming you got a 10 second rez timer with no one else on your team dead is a laugh and a half. No, the losing team does not respawn faster - I observe respawn timers, no one starts with a 10 second respawn timer even when down 200 points.


^^^^^
This guy is following all my posts. Sorry all, apparently he is trying to troll this now.


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Skataki

Senior Member

09-28-2011

having jax on your team is what contributes to making a comeback. It's hard not to comeback when you have a jax


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Stralucire

Senior Member

09-28-2011

Quote:
I'm just saying it is important to add this as a factor when considering what causes a comeback.


Entirely fair. No point in disregarding it, I suppose.

Quote:
Not true, malzahar for example will usually end a game with excess gold as he hits his limit easily before the end in all but the most painful of stomps.


Honestly, I don't know much about Malzahar, so I can't agree that he stands apart. I suppose I've hit the build limit before, but only when I stack cheaper items. To the best of my knowledge I haven't earned more than 13k in any match, and 12k is still pushing the upper achievable limits. That means I can afford 3 core items on top of some mishmash. It's a powerful set of items, for sure. But nothing like a set of 5 high tier items.


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GrandBreaker

Senior Member

09-28-2011

Quote:
Stralucire:
Entirely fair. No point in disregarding it, I suppose.



Honestly, I don't know much about Malzahar, so I can't agree that he stands apart. I suppose I've hit the build limit before, but only when I stack cheaper items. To the best of my knowledge I haven't earned more than 13k in any match, and 12k is still pushing the upper achievable limits. That means I can afford 3 core items on top of some mishmash. It's a powerful set of items, for sure. But nothing like a set of 5 high tier items.


The problem isn't necessarily as easy as we make it out to be hehe. It stems from the new buff in Dominion, the thing giving 15% armor pen 5% magic pen -20%heal effects %based mana and base Experience gain. Basically, before you could reach his gold cap easily and he could be fairly tanky, and without really any gear his full rotation hurts especially when compared to some other peoples. His single target damage remains one of the highest in the game. Its just that when EVERYONE has this buff, suddenly his survivability can go out the window. He does stand apart but a lot of champs WILL smack him 6 ways to sunday if they can reach him. The same can be true for a lot of champs. So malz will inevitably gain an immeasurable amount of damage like normal and a fair amount of survivability. But so will the enemy players naturally. So if malz is the hardest carry on your team, win early. If the game drags out the enemy team might have 1 or 2 hard carries and Malz can only get a full rotation off on one of them, but still change the game by doing so. I hope that helps.


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GnomeDigest

Senior Member

09-28-2011

Quote:
Nideak:
There are, to my knowledge, 3 things that can make an unfair advantage (the third one is not as big as the first two, but is still important to consider)

1. Once their nexus reaches 100 you will no longer deal damage with kills (nor will you deal damage by capping points as well)

2. The losing team gets faster death timers. To anyone who says no is either lying or it's a bug. Also it's not about the wave thing either (as noted somewhere in this topic). I was playing karthus and defending top. 3 people came top to try to capture the point, and I was alone. I died (of course, 1v3 with a little armor and hp, but mostly AP) but took out two of them. No one else died on my team, and the timer ran out so I couldn't ult. My 8 seconds were up and guess what, I was already alive and back in my base. So I ulted, got a triple kill (from killing that guy up top), and saved my capture point at the same time. But seriously there is no way I should be back up in 8 seconds without something in place to help the losing team.

3. Teams that have the better late game champions. They don't have to be ranged carries either. Jax and Tryn are two late game carries who can rip people apart. It basically comes down to which team has the better late game carries.


Thats essentially the mechanics that tend to push games into late game where #3 is more likely to be a factor.

But basically it makes it so many games are ultimately decided once both teams are under 100 on their nexus. Once you get their nexus under 100 having only 2 capped turrets doesnt effect their nexus nor does kills. But the enemy is still getting those benefits and therefor will chip away at your nexus the whole time until they get it down under 100.

That whole time it felt like it was pretty even because each side had two, you were actually losing points and they were not. Thats how teams catch up.

I like the fact that the comeback mechanics help make more exciting finishes but I do think the way they benefit lategame carrys is a serious problem. The mechanics push the game to be close and late, and just when things get the most critical those lategame carries have the best opportunity to have the largest effect. I dont like the mechanics favoring a certain set of champions. To me it makes it seem like Exhaust is a must have. Had never taken Exhaust on Karthus before until Dominion and it has consistently been well worth it. There are very few ways to truly mitigate those late game carries and exhaust is probably the best one.

I imagine there are also some psychological effects as well. Like a semblance of team panic when it feels like you blew a big lead, when really your team probably was doing similar the whole time its just the mechanics stopped giving you points for things you were getting points for while the enemy continued to get points the whole time.


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NoOtherDestiny

Senior Member

09-28-2011

I've had my team come back from like 12 to 200 points, usually it is partly due to end game champs getting their items done and raping face, along with awesome teamwork and the other team getting lazy. Had a few swing back against us the other way to due to getting a bit sloppy since we were winning.


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Tale Feather

Senior Member

09-28-2011

Don't forget the mind game aspect of it either on both sides.

On the 'winning' seeing the group get 3 cap usually gets them to commit to fights they can't win or aren't beneficial to them, in order to try to secure the win.

The underdogs, however, learn to change their tactics a bit to make up for their losses before. Throwing the pattern off for the other team.

Usually, when that happens, instead of the other team adjusting, as they've already built one way, gotten used to playing one way due to being dominant, they get trapped with limited reaction time.

Pair this off on top of building strong late game champions that can't really get underfed due to the way the gold/xp system works, and you've got a problem for the once dominant team. The psychological trauma of 'oh hell, I could loose this.' can really mess up someone's game. On the other hand, the underdogs are going 'hey, we can win this!' and start to punish the other team with what they've learned form them.

I'm really liking Dominion a lot. Far more Skirmish/Teamfight orientated, yet, creepfarming still has some value (Especially for a character like Kayle who does still carry hard late game.)


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Stralucire

Senior Member

09-29-2011

Quote:
But basically it makes it so many games are ultimately decided once both teams are under 100 on their nexus. Once you get their nexus under 100 having only 2 capped turrets doesnt effect their nexus nor does kills.


Incorrect. The team with less caps (or both teams with even caps) will not damage the opposite team regardless of points remaining. You must have a greater number of towers to damage the enemy nexus. At 125 points, all peripheral point loss (ex: killing an enemy) goes away. Which can help the losing team catch up a little quicker. but all tower mechanics remain the same.

Quote:
I hope that helps.

It did, thanks for the Malz breakdown.


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Zeac179

Junior Member

09-29-2011

what I've seen is one of a few things:
1) winners get to spread out
2) the winning team gets slowly worn down in health and killed off and then they get an easy 4 cap
3) because the losers have had time to go buy items instead of defending points with 2/3s heath right in front of enemy spawn which then leads to point 2.

that and what else has been mentioned with the kills stop counting and respawn times.


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Nakavalna

Junior Member

09-29-2011

After losing 12 games in a row with every single game resulting in a comeback of this sort. IE: 200 point lead to losing the game in a flash.