The Frustration With Personal Score

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Lieuu

Junior Member

09-27-2011

First of all, moving away from k/d/a is a great thing. Objectives count for a great deal and moving towards a better "usefulness" heuristic can only help the game. Specifically, random strangers perhaps being able to get along. It also helps you to feel good about your contribution.

However, we aren't quite there yet. Now, I have been playing dominion feverishly since the first beta but, strangely, my personal score has trended downwards the better I feel I have become. The reason for this is I spend less and less time capping points; there's always someone capping the point, but what about that undefended point that I know will be attacked next? Or not undefended, but that I know will need more defenders in 30 seconds? My best move to win is to leave and let one person cap this safe point, because time is everything in this mode. I need to be somewhere NOW. So I probably fought hard over that point and spent time on it, now my best move puts me -80 points. This (especially) feels incredibly bad when you were the original defender for some time, a teamate(s) comes and helps you just in the nick of time to retake that point, except they are the ones getting the cap credit as you run off for your next counter-move... and of course you do it because you want the team to win.

But it doesn't end here. In fact, what's next is my primary concern (you do get some defense oriented points for interrupts and such. Morello has acknowledged defense is being looked at points-wise). The much larger problem I feel is the situation where you are actively preventing points from being capped in the first place. Where instead of lose-retake, you play better such that you prevent the lost point in the first place by zoning them out of the area, controlling the middle, fighting people on their way and pushing them out, etc. This is the worst case possible for gaining points yet the most successful defense I have seen/executed thus far.

To get to the core of the issue: personal score rewards high capture point turnover and high kill/death turnover, and rewards very little for for certain other strongly positive behaviours. That is, score is given out like a flood if a point is repeatedly capped back and forth and there are lots of kills and deaths going on. There is very little score if you prevent them reaching a cap by zoning and control.



A game where you:

- Run to the next available point cap (with a couple teamates), while you simultaneously lose a point.
- Run immediately to a point and fight regardless
- Upon respawn, run to where the action is (nets kills/assists) and the point that is there and cap it with teamates. Again, while losing a point due to "overkill" on committing 3-5 people to one place that didn't need it
- Run with multiple other teamates to recover the point you lost to a ninja cap. Then run to the point you last toook to take it back... again
- Stick with teamates primarily and attack/cap the next point with them. Over-committment means losing points elsewhere and ninja caps, but...
- It's a score orgy for such a high turnover situation. Points being lost and recapped everywhere and lots of deaths and kills.



This is my typical Nidalee game on the Crystal Scar (I don't even play nidalee that much, and this easily applies to any champion you play this way):

- Fight for the first point (windmill). After which, constantly keep track of the minimap
- Always keep enemy counts in areas of the map and respawns. Go somewhere ASAP when they could be mounting an attack (or likely to)
- Not get in a position where I get caught and killed outnumbered when not enough teamates are available. Sucks when you have to let them cap windmill.
- At the same time, NEVER giving them any space they can't take themselves. Poking and interrupting them at the point. Immediately fighting them when you have the reinforcements. Fighting and poking them back to their refinery/drill
- Run down to bottom preventing caps and teamates being outnumbered in "team fights"



It can be summed up by map control. Nidalee excels at this but the same concepts apply to most situations. The score you get for this? I usually end up lowest or maybe second lowest as Nidalee, unless you go on a super killing spree all game and 4-cap them. I will have a kda of about 10/3/16 or similar, spending ALL my time alive working hard to keep points safe and being in the right places. I will have the lowest number of point caps by far, despite being part of the most actual point defenses. Where does my score stand to reflect what I did? I get:


- Half kill/assist score for between two points or controlling middle first, before risking the point (the best circumstance)
- Zero score for when you drive them away or otherwise win the preemptive-defend, but they run away successfully
- Score for point interrupts if it comes to it
- Score for kills/assists on point; probably with teamates
- Score for health pickups
- Solo re-caps if you are the only survivor

So, I'm "last place" and what happens? Inevitably you hear the "useless" or "gg nidalee" comment in chat every other game. It's a real mood killer when you know you are both have a huge impact on the number of points your team holds and are consistently fighting really well, as any champion.

This is the forums so I feel I have to mention I am an EU player and ended the season at 1700 elo, playing a handful of games per week(fewer ranked). I think making a bid for platinum would have been fun if I played all day. The point of bringing this up is that I am well-aware of the dunning-kruger effect and a myriad of other cognitive biases. I also know that dominion has a "fresh" elo rating for it and that, from everything I can tell, my assessment of how much I am contributing relative to my teamates is accurate, which leads me to the main concern:

There is very little reward for zone control and pre-emptive defending. The score system promotes bad play in some circumstances; mainly ecouraging too many people in one place to get cap points, when there are far higher priorities.

Don't tell me "intangibles are impossible to reward". Everything is of intangible benefit until you find a way to measure it. You measure kills by counting them and would call that concrete, but some kills are worth more than others for winning. In the same way, a heuristic for successful defending is entirely reasonable. Just for example, you can measure who was near a point on the map (including enemies), then measure if the point remains captured in the time after. There are many clever ways of measuring this stuff but the point of this thread is to bring up the current inequity.

And reds, regarding dominion, I tip my design hat at you. My anti-passivity obsession with the game is sated


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ssteele

Junior Member

09-27-2011

Personal scores do not affect who wins. In competitive play they do not matter. What this scoring system does provide is incentive for people to be more aggressive, and ultimately make "pugs" more fun. Perhaps the best strategy for winning is defensive, such as heimer sitting top, but is that really the most enjoyable for everyone?


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Basist

Senior Member

09-27-2011

If they gave more points for defending, I don't think many people would complain then. I only average about 900-1k a game as Soraka but I've defended top so much and get like 10 Martyr's a game.


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Ninjamancer

Senior Member

09-27-2011

I Completely agree. Defensive play gives you close to ZERO personal score... even tho it's such a massive part of the gameplay.


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Lieuu

Junior Member

09-27-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssteele View Post
Personal scores do not affect who wins. In competitive play they do not matter.
Exactly why I continue to play this way, ignoring score as a guide of what to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssteele View Post
What this scoring system does provide is incentive for people to be more aggressive, and ultimately make "pugs" more fun. Perhaps the best strategy for winning is defensive, such as heimer sitting top, but is that really the most enjoyable for everyone?
Surely enjoyment is affected drastically by the things people say and the way they act towards you in a game? Score encouraging insulting behaviour is not a good thing.

Also, this is not about a defensive strategy at all. It is about the defensive aspect of your strategy. Aggression is great, but you can also react and fight to retain control of your own points. It's all similar action. In fact, the case you are LEAST rewarded is when you are aggressive in map control and prevent them from reaching your point, instead taking the fight to them in the fog.


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Elcee

Junior Member

09-27-2011

I completely agree with this post

One point I'd like to reinforce is the rewards for a high kill death turnover.

One trend I've noticing is that preserving your own life seems to be an underrated aspect of dominion at the moment. Many players seem to be willing to die too freely, which is obviously bad given it gives the enemy resources, you lose time and potentially objectives.

There are many situations where fighting to the death and trading kills is a bad move, for example last person alive out of a team fight caps the point. I've generally found that defensive play which involves stalling and interrupts is often the way to go, especially if you can stall while outnumbered since they're obviously commiting more time for fewer results.

However since high k/d turnover seems to be more highly rewarded, players could be given an inaccurate view of how they're performing as score is the primary feedback mechanism.

One way to incentivize this could be to penalise personal score for deaths. This could scale downwards as the number of the person's death increases so to not penalise people having bad games too hard and reset either partially or fully when they kill or get assists.


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iamriddik

Senior Member

09-27-2011

i agree entirely but how do you separate pre-emptive defending from just getting kills? how can the computer determine "this guy is stalling enemies away from the tower" vs. "this guy is fighting enemies midlane" ?


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iamriddik

Senior Member

09-27-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elcee View Post

One way to incentivize this could be to penalise personal score for deaths. This could scale downwards as the number of the person's death increases so to not penalise people having bad games too hard and reset either partially or fully when they kill or get assists.
this would hurt defenders. this would further deter fighting to the death to defend a tower


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GPEternity

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Senior Member

09-27-2011

Award more points for interrupting enemy captures and being near the point when enemies are there.


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Tallonx

Junior Member

09-27-2011

Totally agree with this. If they want the core mechanics to be capture and hold, they need to reward those who are defending and capturing more than those who are killing enemies. yes killing enemies is key, but its not a core part anymore. At least thats the way I see it


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