Your concept of how to win Dominion is wrong.

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FrozenXylaphone

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Senior Member

09-26-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carrion View Post
I do not agree there is any backdooring on this map at all, the minions should be ignored. There's ALWAYS something better to be doing than pushing minion waves, since the towers do not attack you if you just go up to them and cap. "Backdooring" is how you play this map.
Pushed minion waves capture towers. You can push your wave then go steal another tower and thus you capture 2 towers. It is actually how you win but you only get points for 1 capture when you actually made two captures.


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Blackultra

Adjudicator

09-26-2011

generally there's nowhere on the map you can be and not reach a point to defend it if they are "backdoor"ing. the capture time (just one champ, no minions or item-boosts) is a good 10-13 seconds, enough time for at least one champion to get to you (if they are watching).

Not to mention, the spawn time is relatively low, so "backdoor"ing the capture points on the opposite end of the map is pretty difficult as there's almost always someone on their end of the map.


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Beaumains

Senior Member

09-26-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by xgxmxrx View Post
lets all be honest there is no real strategy here.
if you have a rammus on the other team 15 minutes into the game with ghost and powerball he can achieve 800 movement speed and get to one of the points you hold in just a few seconds so while in the meantime youre trying to defend the windmill up top he comes and takes the point closest to your base and screws up everything. BACKDOORING IS THE EASIEST WAY TO WIN THIS GAME.
That's what I do. Just had a really good game where we started with a 3-1 tower lead doing that (I stopped them from capturing one of their home towers, which forced their top team to retreat, and gave us a nearly uncontested 3 caps - survived too). The ms is more than 900 btw, if you get gank boots, which means Rammus litereally threatens every capture point on the map at game start. He's not the only one of course, but he's likely to be the most notorious.


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Ahlen

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Senior Member

09-26-2011

If the heroes on your team can't 1v1 or 2v2 the heroes on their team, you're probably going to lose.


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Carrion

Member

09-26-2011

Yes, I agree with the rammus lovers. Pressuring every point on the map is an extremely effective strategy. I think it's dumb how everyone fights over windmill right off the bat as well. Switching it up gives you the element of surprise. I think people need to get over the whole ONE BOT ONE MID THREE TOP mentality as well, that makes even less sense to me than the SR's carry mentality.


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Beaumains

Senior Member

09-26-2011

Ok, it looks like some things need to be cleared up. Backdooring is not a viable strategy on the Crystal Scar; but "backdooring" is. Backdooring just gets a new definition for the map, and it has more than one function. The new definition is very similar to the old one - essentially it's the same: you're threatening to cap a tower that the enemy isn't near. Besides the obvious advantage gained in the unlikely event that no one should respond, an immediate secondary advantage is forcing the enemy to respond. And if they're busy chasing you, that frees up your allies to cap a different tower. And so on, and so forth. Now, successful backdooring will only be possible for those champions who can get a huge speed advantage on a regular basis (e.g. Rammus, Teemo). This is because they can literally threaten any tower at any given time, being able to arrive in ~2.5 secs minimum; where it takes anyone else up to ~10 seconds to arrive undetected; leaving him with up to ~5 seconds to neutralize or cap the tower. Remember, the biggest advantage you can have is one of towers. In a 2:2 match, neutralizing an enemy tower is just as effective as capping a neutral one - arguably more powerful actually, as it forces them to respond to at least 3 points (their threatened tower, if only to recap; the neutral tower, if only to keep it neutral; and one of your towers, to regain the lost health difference) on the map simultaneously and spontaneously.

Now, backdooring by itself cannot win the game. It simply can't. If you have more than 2 people on a team hoping to BD, it probably won't work. The biggest advantage of having someone to BD, is that it frees the rest of your team up to focus on another objective, and can relieve pressure on an objective you're trying to gain. It should be noted however, that BDers are the ones who make 4 to 1 swaps possible (a swap that leaves you with 4 towers, and them with 1). Backdoorers are the ones that make the game frantic, that keep everyone responding to seemingly innumerable simultaneous threats.

But in the end, they're only 1 part of 5 in your team/game.


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Beaumains

Senior Member

09-26-2011

So if Backdooring isn't the end-all be-all of Dominion, what is?

Well, I suppose the answer to that question is killing the enemy nexus. How that is best accomplished however, is through a well balanced team. So what else is needed on a well balanced team?

A carry. You need someone who can simply dish out damage and threaten champions with their lives. One of the biggest advantages in the game is still killing enemy champions, because that leaves them with one less person to stop you with (for each one you kill). While Aces will be less common in Dominion, they are much more powerful (because you can pull a Hail Mary). Carries don't necessarily need to kill a champion, but can at least neutralize them, much like cappers can neutralize towers for an advantage. Remember, in Dominion every second counts, so forcing someone out of the fight is more powerful on Scar than Rift, even if it's just 15 seconds to base, heal, and return, rather than 30 seconds to respawn.

Which brings me to the next part. Kills are worthless in Dominion. Literally. They are worth less than capping towers. Capping gives you a bigger hit to the nexus, can be accomplished more frequently, and provide a potential for sustained damage to their nexus. Kills, however, enable you to cap towers. But, because the respawn time is always ~ 20-30 seconds (is it just me or does it seem to decrease as the game goes on?), it isn't much better tactically than driving them off. In fact, it's sort of a trade-off, because killing someone gives them a free observer who can look at the big picture without worrying about the carry coming to kill them. Such a person can help guide/direct their team's movements while they're dead, or at least plan their own next move without fear of repercussions. Living champions always have an urgency, and on CS, almost a tunnel vision that gets imposed sometimes. Coordination is much harder because of the faster pace and shorter distances in the game. All in all, death is less penalized on Scar, and the only real benefit seems to be a nick (appreciable) in their nexus and some gold to get your IE sooner with (which in turn drives the game more in your favor).

So, just like BDers are only 1 part of your team/game, so are carries. They're a necessary part, but if you put 4 AD carries on a team, my Rammus is going to laugh as you literally kill yourselves trying to kill me (that actually happened - 3 AD carries, and Eve & Poppy decided to build IE, BT, and Sheen). 1 is enough; 2 is pushing it. What you really need a carry for though, is to kill the otherwise unkillable champions, the ones who dig in, or are a huge presence in an enemy push, or are just naturally resistant to damage. Because of the faster pace of the game, an AP burst caster might be better suited than an AD carry, but as long as the champion can kill anyone over there quickly, they should suffice. More than 2 carries however, and your odds of winning are likely less than those of a well balanced team.


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Beaumains

Senior Member

09-26-2011

So if a BDer is only 1 part of the team/game, and a carry is only 1 part of the team/game, what else is useful or will contribute to a balanced team?

A Pusher. Or even 2. Crystal Scar has the distinct advantage that there are constantly multiplying opportunities and objectives to push. Split pushing seems practically built in to the map. Minions are a threat in Dominion, but only if unattended. If you don't respond to them, they can cap a tower ... eventually. Likewise if you leave them alone on your side, their minions can push back and automatically defend the point. Having a champion who can push against the minions and defend their push will give surety to the success of the push, and if no one responds, will increase the speed of their push. Honestly, it's probably the second most thankless job, but certainly one of the most necessary. After all, if you don't have a primary push, how can you have a split push, or a backdoor? How do you expect to set up some kills for your carry if they don't see one lonesome Mordekaiser(/Alistar/Singed/etc.) bowling down the lane in plain view of everyone? How are you supposed to achieve those game-changing Quests without a pusher? (I'm sure it's possible, and it's possible to win without getting a single one, but it's a lot easier to win if you do get them, and it's easier to get them if you have a pusher). Remember, pushing a Quest doesn't just give your team a tower advantage, it hits the enemy nexus much harder than any other instant damage, including an Ace; and it gives your team a powerful buff (10% damage boost) that allows you to continue taking towers/objectives/kills, or at the least retake those towers you lost to the enemy team's sneaky BDer. This is possibly the one golden opportunity of the game; it's the only snowballish part of the game, because this one success can lead to a bunch of others, or even a comeback (had a game recently where we literally won the game 2:0, from 2:80+); Quests help. Pushers help.

BUT. If your team is nothing but pushers, a more balanced team will just run circles around you. Their carries will kill you and their BDers steal rear towers while the rest of their team holds off your advance. Mordekaiser, Singed, Alistar, Sivir, and Tristana may win the lane every single time, but you're liable to lose 3-4 towers while doing it. However, 1-2 powerful pushers will demand just as much attention from the enemy (or more) as any BDer or carry. Yet, they're still only 1 part of your team/game.


EDIT: If you for some reason believe that pushers are not part of a well balanced team in Dominion, or on the Crystal Scar (assuming other Dominion maps will be made), then please feel free to mention why you should never have a pusher on the team.


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Beaumains

Senior Member

09-26-2011

Okay then, so far I've covered only offensive types of roles that are needed in the game. Of course, if you only have Pushers, Carries, & BDers; your team is more likely to lose than you would be if it were more balanced. So what's missing?

Defenders. Probably the most underappreciated, ill-respected, and unsung heroes of the bunch, defenders are in the unique position of actively keeping your team from losing. Whether they come in the form of a tank who defends your champions, or simply a quick poker who can interrupt enemy cap attempts, or a counter-pusher who stays a defending lane, or some other form, they all share one thing in common: making sure your number of towers doesn't decrease, or at least giving the enemy a sore pain of a time trying to get the one they got. If nothing else, they buy the rest of your team time; time to get there to back them up, or time to snatch another objective, or time to go back and heal, but time; and time is probably the single most valuable commodity in the game, because you likely don't have more than about 15-20 minutes total, 30 for very long games, and some games can end in under 10 minutes (if you truly let the enemy win, it can be over in less than 3).

Now, technically everybody is on defense. The whole game everybody needs to be able to respond to any given situation at any given time, all the time. But different roles respond in different ways. The BDer will BD to try to throw the enemy off, or at least get a good trade in. The carry will try to kill the enemies trying to cap, or at least drive them off. The pusher will try to push down a tower, or push back the enemy's offense. But the Defender is special; they're the one devoted to actively stick with a tower and keep it from falling. Remember that this is a "Capture and Hold" gamestyle. Holding is important, one of the most important things actually, and Defenders are the champions primarily charged with making that happen. Now, the role may seem rather broad, and perhaps just about anyone can fill it - most champions will play the role in a minor way at some point in the game. What differentiates a Defender from a BDer should be obvious; the BDer is tasked with capturing and ideally has skills to accomplish that while the Defender is tasked with holding and ideally has skills that support that. So how do you hold a tower? I mean, can't a carry just rush to a tower's defense in time of need? Well, yes, and likely will. But you don't want a carry tied down to a particular tower for too long if you can help it. Besides, carries tend to be rather squishy (even when they get a defensive item) and as we've all hopefully learned on Rift, are susceptible to a coordinated assault from multiple champions. But a Defender should be able to take at least an inital beating, deal at least some damage to make attackers wary, and be able to quickly and efficiently interrupt cap attemts, at a minimum.

Perhaps an example is in order. It seems to me that Blitzcrank would make an excellent Defender. He's not really a tank, but he's tanky. He deals a really nice chunk of damage, but he's not really a carry (until we discover that Power Fist crits for 5x damage). He does however, have several very nice ways to disrupt an enemy assault, can survive their initial beating, and deal enough damage to deter or at least slow their assault. He can Grab an enemy into or away from a friendly tower, pop them in the air to let the tower lock on, he has a strong AS buff, which can allow him to efficiently interrupt many many assailants as might be expected from 3-4 attackers, and if worst comes to worst, he has a massive aoe damage/silence that can significantly set back an enemy assault. Really, Blitz is such a great example because he lets the tower do all the work.

So defenders are champions who excel under towers more than other champions, are tough, threatening (in light of the tower at least), and disruptive. Most tanks and off-tanks should fill this role well. Defenders also have a secondary purpose; in keeping with the theme of giving you time, they are the ones who are responsible for keeping your team alive, in the same way that tanks on Rift protect their team. Ideally they will divert or stop the enemy completely, allowing a teammate to escape, or extend a push, or rescue a tower, etc. Defenders will operate in different ways; for example, Heimerdinger also makes an excellent defender, though he's not a classic tank, because he can set a turret or two to prevent enemies from locking up the main tower. He's also got a multi-target rocket salvo, and a grenade that will completely lock enemies down. Because his turrets have no timer, he can theoretically indefinitely hold 2 adjacent towers (maybe even 3).

All that said, as important as defenders are, if you have only the ability to hold towers, you can hang onto those 2 you've got all game long until your nexus blows up 10 minutes later. However, Defenders are the one role that, because of the breadth of definition and likelihood for overlap with other roles (e.g. pusher), this is the role if any that you'd want to see more than one of, and could allow for even 3 of. If you have 4 really good ones, that could be a winning strategy, but I believe a well balanced team would be more successful than a defense heavy team. Defense is still just one part of the team/game.


EDIT: Really? Someone thinks that the best way to win the game is to capture all the points and hold none of them? What happens when your opponent starts out-capping you? It seems a wise course of action to try to stop the enemy from capping your towers, but not everyone on your team can be devoted to that role (though everyone should definitely assist in that endeavour, as I've already said).


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Beaumains

Senior Member

09-26-2011

LOL. Downvoted before it's even written?

Someone following this thread might think my aim here is to say something like "5 towers, 5 champions, 5 posts, 5 roles," and they'd be terribly wrong. Ultimately BDers, carries, pushers, defenders, and everything else are traits that a good team comp needs to cover. If I had to make up a "5th role" - I'd call it the Wild Card, or something like that, because really, you need to get as many of the traits as needed into your team as much as you can. You can have champions capable of Pushing & BDing, carrying & defending, carry/pushers (Sivir), BD/carries (Yi), BD/defenders (rammus), and so on. Other traditional roles you want to try to get into your comp include assassins/gankers, supports, tanks, and CCers.

Basically, you need to get as much speed, damage, durability, CC, flexibility, map control, sustainability, as you possibly can into your team. The standard roles/metas from Summoner's Rift no longer apply in Dominion, any more than the relevant tactics apply - in their traditional sense, at least. New map, new style, new objectives, new rules, new items, new spells, means new strategies, and a new way of looking at 'roles' and team comp.

One more example, which will hopefully clarify my meaning. Take Zilean. Zilean is traditionally a support/caster. On Dominion he would be a Defender (keeps people safe & alive, and can hold a tower), a Pusher (clears minion waves like a boss), an indirect BDer (zoom?), and even makes a mean AP carry (bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb b-bomb). If he gets the drop on you he makes for an excellent ganker, but he lacks durability and CC (unless he has Rylai's). But since Riot has yet to make a true jack-of-all-trades, so far as I know, one can't expect a champion to do everything. The point is simply this; different champions will fill different roles, and many if not most will play multiple roles. Hey, if the enemy team is all AP, even Gallio will carry.