Winning team is invincible to point loss

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3bullient

Junior Member

09-23-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by NWAla View Post
I agree there is no punishment for reaching stage 2, I never said there was, this seems to be the misunderstanding people on both sides of the discussion are making though.

Unfortunately your analogy doesn't work because in a race you move forward irrespective of each other, and hence misses my whole argument and point. In this case obviously this isn't true, as once you both reach the tricycle section only one person, the better tricyclist moves forward. The fact that it is incredibly hard to come up with an analogy, kinda proves my point about it being a very random and arbitrary system. The closest I can think of is a tug of war, where you can run for a bit and then tricycle for a bit. Hence only the faster person in each case moves in the right direction, but even that doesn't work due to it being a count-down rather than a count-up.


Having a 2-stage system is just odd, arbitrary and counterintuitive when nothing in-game changes. Nothing from my perspective and from what I control changes and yet suddenly I am rewarded differently. Suddenly despite doing better than the opponent I hurt them less in quantity of points. What this means is that actually these final 125 points are 'worth more', as they are harder to get rid of, and both team do eventually have to get rid of them to win, this means they are somehow different. 1 point in the last 125 is not equivalent to 1 point in the first 125. If I could choose between start a game with enemy nexus at 450 or being declared winner when the enemy still 50 nexus health left, I would always choose the second. This is because those last 50 points are 'worth more' yet are still displayed as exactly the same. This is counterintuitive and weird as they are both shown as just 1 point, so you would assume they are equivalent.

This actually causes a 'fake comeback' effect. People see they are say 100 points vs 300 points. They win, and assume they did "3xs better than the opponent, a massive comeback". Actually say these last 125 points are each worth 5 points of the first 375 points. Then the real point scores are 500 vs 800, ie its not actually as much of a difference as it appears and its actually not much of a comeback, especially if you have a better late game comp, then you might consider yourself actually to be in the better position due to this even though you are lower on nexus health.

From a balance perspective you need to check that this cap or point equivalence is at the correct point. Using my example, suppose that these final points are indeed worth 5 points that of the first 375. Then you have your first 375, then 625 of the later stuff. Ie a team who is better at stage 2 but worse at stage 1, will on average win against a team who is better at stage 1 but worse at stage 2 and will also win against a team who is average at stage 1 and stage 2. This is because stage 2 is 'longer' (not in time, in equivalence points) or 'more important'.

Ie having a lategame comp is a much better strategy than an early game comp. I personally from my experience feel that this is the case in dominion. That the later points are worth considerably more than the first points, and hence late-game team comps dominate early-game/balanced team comps. This was actually always bound to happen due to the structure of these 2 stages, the team seemingly behind because they were behind in score, weren't as far behind because they had a better late game and late game counted for more. This imbalance/effect is hidden and renamed as a "comeback" by what I said above about the "fake comeback" effect. When people have told me their "comeback" stories I have always asked for the teamcomps and what happened etc... I almost always find that actually these are indeed "fake comebacks" and that they had a way better late game comp.


Basically the misunderstanding I see people making is the following two things, one is correct one is incorrect.

1. Imo Correct: "You are punished for prioritising early game over late game, (because late game is worth more these last 125 are worth a lot due to the 2-stages)"

2. Incorrect: "You are punished for doing well early game"

I am saying 1, I am NOT saying 2. I am also saying the fact that 1 exsists is a very odd and counterintuitive, it seems to me all parts of the game should be of equal worth in dominion. Hence the person who on average does best wins, ie the person who captures most/kills most, rather than there still being the possibility of a team with less kills/capturetime winning just due to when it happened.

All the counterarguments (especially in the quote above) are explaining that 2 is incorrect, and that I agree. That I would always want to have more hp on my nexus is trivial. However nobody has explained if/why 1 is incorrect. Finally the fact that this change is discontinous 2-stage, rather than scaling, exaggerates this fact and makes it much harder to get a good point equivalence for balance.
I did not see this before I posted but I would like to say that I understand your confusion and I can agree that the second stage is where the points really matter. I can see the argument that they should make the whole game consistent with the second stage, also given my post above.

I still disagree however as any sort of game system is in at least one sense arbitrary. The two stage game design we're talking about here does sort of encourage a sort of 'false comeback' in the sense that one team's late game comp is better than the other, and perhaps over time this will mean that everyone will focus on good late game comps. I won't argue that. But to me the intuitive leap was never very hard because kills and deaths never mattered to me, I never kept track of how many kills I got because I was so focused on holding points and that's how I think the game should be viewed. The early kill penalty should just be considered a slider for making it move a little faster.

edit: You throw up some smoke and mirrors there by saying "early/balanced comps." That's a bit disingenuous because I would argue you don't know what a "balanced" team comp is except in terms of SR/TT. An early/balanced comp to you might be one focused on killing when it should be focused on whatever it is that we need for Dominion and frankly I don't think there's clear roles yet. You saying early/balanced comp implies that that is somehow a 'right' comp. So-called 'late-game' comps are where it's at because the game is all about capture and hold. If kills early game mattered so much they would have a greater effect on nexus health, as it is you make a lot more progress by simply playing capture and hold whatever stage you think you're in, nexus health degrades the same from point captures and only scales on number of points over your enemies no matter how much nexus health anyone has. There shouldn't be any 'early game' comp and if you're playing based on some sense of 'early game progress' you're playing it wrong.


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Maya Fey

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Senior Member

09-23-2011

What?


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Maya Fey

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Senior Member

09-27-2011

Just lost when we had 400 hp and they had one.

It wasn't that much fun.