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AP AND AD Shaco?

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TheTeddyBaxter

Senior Member

09-21-2011

I've seen all the discussions about AP being better than AD, vice versa. (I'm an AD player, so far. But I've been messing around with AP shaco some.)

And I've ALWAYS wondered, why not do a mix of both? Get a gunblade, toss in trinity force/ Lich Bane, get some attack speed and some solid AD items in there. I'm assuming that the reason is trying to do everything and being good at nothing but no one's been able to give me a solid answer other than: lawl. It sucks.

A better answer as in WHY it's bad would be nice.

I tried one out, an AP and AD build. It did alright, but I was on a pretty weak team and wasn't playing my A game by any means.


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Haemonculus

Senior Member

09-21-2011

Tried it out against bots and I don't necessarily like it. It gives Shaco a better early game if you grab a doran's ring and rush Trinity or Hextech as well as ups his healing, which helps his sustainability in lane, but it ruins his late game. I don't find myself doing enough damage to matter because having both AP and AD only really helps your JitBs (I don't find myself placing a bunch of nests mainly because I suck at it) and if you're smart your Hallucinations--I find it better if they do more damage while they're alive as I don't necessarily like suicide bombing. You're going to be getting the same damage with Shivs if you just go full AP or AD, more so full AP. So, I think it's much better to just go full AD or full AP and just grab a Doran's Ring in the beginning. It's what I do and it helps quite a bit with staying in lane; that extra AP and Mp/5 is amazing.

Also... wtf is lane Shaco?


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TheTeddyBaxter

Senior Member

09-21-2011

I do it cause I SUCK at jungling and it works well. I ussually(depending on my partner) get a lvl 1 or 2 gank right out the gates and things just go from there. I think I'll stick to AD for now. Thanks.


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Haemonculus

Senior Member

09-21-2011

You're very welcome ;3 and I don't jungle with Shaco anymore either XD after you stop jungling for awhile you sorta forget what you need to be doing.


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Zauper

Member

09-21-2011

jungle shaco is so easy, his start is amazing with jitb which enables easy early ganks/counterjungling :/

In any case, you certainly can go gunblade/TF, but lane shaco isn't going to be getting tons of farm generally (melee, no great lasthit ranged mechanism, and very fragile and thus susceptible to harass), and those are both very expensive items to get in a real game.

Beyond that, you'd be building like a glass cannon, but you'd be losing AP shaco's ability to instagib someone and still having less than AD's sustained damage.


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CTHDRL

Senior Member

09-21-2011

Quote:
Zauper:
jungle shaco is so easy, his start is amazing with jitb which enables easy early ganks/counterjungling :/

In any case, you certainly can go gunblade/TF, but lane shaco isn't going to be getting tons of farm generally (melee, no great lasthit ranged mechanism, and very fragile and thus susceptible to harass), and those are both very expensive items to get in a real game.

Beyond that, you'd be building like a glass cannon, but you'd be losing AP shaco's ability to instagib someone and still having less than AD's sustained damage.


AP Shaco destroys squishies in a lane. But just like any other champion if you're against Cait + Alistar you're going to hate life.



On topic of the thread, there is no reason to build Shaco hybrid. He doesn't have innate survivability(shields, damage reduction, heals etc) besides his escapes. He doesn't have innate high base damage on multiple abilities. He doesn't have innate lifesteal or spellvamp. He doesn't any innate passive that allows him to utilize AP and AD cost effectively. The person I quoted here said it well. "Beyond that, you'd be building like a glass cannon, but you'd be losing AP shaco's ability to instagib someone and still having less than AD's sustained damage.["


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Zauper

Member

09-21-2011

Quote:
SLPYHD:
AP Shaco destroys squishies in a lane. But just like any other champion if you're against Cait + Alistar you're going to hate life.

So if we assume the current meta of tanky champ top, AP mid, and AD carry/support bot, where are you putting shaco? Most of the AP mids would crush AP shaco. Annie, Brand, Morg, Cass...I would take any of them in mid over Shaco. Maybe it would be different bot, but mid where there's less room to gank and less ability to hide nests in the bushes effectively? I'd take the AP carry to win the lane. The AP carry will also be more effective late game.

Bot? In the current meta, it doesn't really matter who the AD carry/support are -- the support will give the AD carry enough sustain to largely ignore you. In fact, if the AD carry is Corki, Ez, or Cait, you'll probably find yourself outharassed.

Then there's the question of how Shaco fits into a bot lane in the current meta. Is he the support? If not, where is your AD carry? Are you running a kill lane bot instead of an AD carry lane? (and thus going without a support, and probably split CS on your two bot champs)


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BloodsHaven

Member

09-21-2011

i find frozen mallet jungle shaco the best (beefy dps). More than enough hp to sustain a team fight and during ganks the slow from himself and his clone + his passive slow ensures death enless ur jumpin on them by a turret. you might not be able to burst a turret down in seconds but your clone will have enough hp to tank the turret without a minnion wave. frozen mallet rush wont give me the burst but no one gets away from u and ur clone regardless of who they exaust the clone keeps them slowed and u can be an active member of the first team fight by being deceptively not squishy. Most 1 v 1s will go ur way if u have ur clone cause its not easyly killed ether.

jus saying beefy dps is the most viable imo but i mostly jungle shaco

Edit: come to think of it most games that have a ap shaco we loose 50 mins in because after laning phase ap shaco is trash ofcourse enless ur opponents are trash


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AreYouReady2Die

Senior Member

09-21-2011

The best shaco I've ever seen went high ap deathcap, lichbane with last whisper last, kid was triple killing late, and made enemy team rage hard.

It takes balls and a lot of skill


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Dalek Caan

Senior Member

09-21-2011

Quote:
SLPYHD:
AP Shaco destroys squishies in a lane. But just like any other champion if you're against Cait + Alistar you're going to hate life.



On topic of the thread, there is no reason to build Shaco hybrid. He doesn't have innate survivability(shields, damage reduction, heals etc) besides his escapes. He doesn't have innate high base damage on multiple abilities. He doesn't have innate lifesteal or spellvamp. He doesn't any innate passive that allows him to utilize AP and AD cost effectively. The person I quoted here said it well. "Beyond that, you'd be building like a glass cannon, but you'd be losing AP shaco's ability to instagib someone and still having less than AD's sustained damage.["


I must be missing something. Are we talking about the same clown with 29834293847 JiTB glitches? The same clown who sucks at laning and is better off sticking to jungling? The same clown who can't effectively harass with Shiv early game due to high mp costs, not to mention can't harass with anything else because he's full melee-ranged and squishy?
Just making sure we're on the same page here. Once again, AP Shaco is only good for 3 things:

1) JiTB Nests - Which can be countered by not face checking bushes
2) Shiv spam - One offensive ability that can actually be used with a horrendous cd, horrendous enough to make it barely spammable
3) Hallucinate suicide - Sending in your clone to blow up

AP Shaco has no place on any team unless you're obviously trolling and don't care about winning. At least AD Shaco can BD and add so much more to team fights.


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