Hp per lvl seals > dodge seals

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xzymethx

Senior Member

05-15-2010

whats better on quintessence : 32.4hp or 4,26 armor?


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Eppa

Senior Member

05-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by xzymethx View Post
whats better on quintessence : 32.4hp or 4,26 armor?
Hp


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AnAnarchist

Senior Member

05-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by WulfDragoon View Post
Hey guys, just somethings you might like to consider from a mathematicians perspective:

Flat Hp works on laws of average because your HP is a fixed rate, and the hits is almost flat as well (i'm assuming we aren't going to talk about critical chance and damage, because my math isn't up for it.) so lets take one of these situations:



you are forgetting one important thing though: dodge is a chance, so you can't just look use averages. "Law of large numbers" states that experimental values (the values recorded) only approach theoretical values as the repeat of the experiment approaches infinity. 15 hits is not infinity.

Instead lets approach it from a statistical point of view and recognize dodge as what it is: a binomial probability. 6.75% dodge is a probability of success. Lets set a fixed number of trials at 6, and any successes k>0 means survival. I use a ti-85 "binompdf(6, .0675, 0)" to check for chance of death = .6575%. What does that mean?!?!

Only in 66% percent of the time does having only 6% dodge kill you. that means 34% of the time does a measly 6% dodge result in one OR more dodges saves your life. WOOOH!

Wait, lets change the scenario and make the dodge even better. Lets grab a Ninja Tabi and estimate your dodge chance at 1 in 5, 20%. So now use binompdf(6, 0.20, 0) = 26% of you never dodging. Which means in 74% of the possible cases you survive the 15 hit encounter. And in 34% of the cases (binomcdf (6, 0.2 , 1) ) you dodge more then one hit, and can actually win the fight. Crazy huh?

Now the fact is this is a statistical chance game. If you get ganked in the jungle and you die in fifteen hits, screaming "OMG my binomial statistical chance of survival was over 70%" isn't going to get you anywhere, where as HP might have saved you.

The point is, the small dodge chance is actually more then you think it is. So, where as flat HP gives diminishing returns over time, dodge actually holds up real well. If you guys have any questions on the math, I can explain it more

Your math intrigues me and is tbh above my head, you clearly know your statistics. However you said something like as the repeat of the experiment aproaches infinity the results will far more closely represent the 6.75% value.

Obviously you can never reach infinity but I bet if you added up how many auto attacks have been sent my characters way over 700+ games and then compared the times I have dodged with the average % chance I had to dodge during those games it'd be pretty **** close. I may have been lucky and I may not have been but at the end of the day taking dodge is a gamble and in a game largely of strategy I'd rather minimise the variables I can't predict then adding to them by my own hand.


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DreamyDays

Senior Member

05-15-2010

If you want a better way to see it, I can give it to you.

At the end of the game, check the physical damage done to you at the statistics.

Think of dodging 6.75% of that damage.


Compare that with how many times you are going to get below 175 health and then get back to full health.


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AnAnarchist

Senior Member

05-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamyDays View Post
If you want a better way to see it, I can give it to you.

At the end of the game, check the physical damage done to you at the statistics.

Think of dodging 6.75% of that damage.


Compare that with how many times you are going to get below 175 health and then get back to full health.
You wouldn't dodge near 6.75% of that damage.

You'd have to take all the autoattacks thrown at you, calculate the median of these attacks, multiply it by the number of attacks that were thrown at you and then take 6.75% of that figure to give an average representation of how much damage you would dodge.

I think thats right anyways, I'm kinda tired and in a hurry so I don't have much time to think :P


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Aeonstorm

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Senior Member

05-15-2010

I think the point that has been made is flat hp is rarely ever gonna save you, whereas dodge has the possibility of negating huge amounts of dmg. However, ofc, if you have over 2.59k health, then dodge is better even on average.


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Aeilus

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Junior Member

05-15-2010

It's likely if you're a tank with a lot of hp people will avoid attacking you and just go for more squishy targets.

As mentioned before dodge is a constant bonus and generally unnoticeable, whereas with hp is obvious and once it is lost it's gone until you heal it. Items that punish people that pump hp like Madred's Bloodrazor would work against Hp buffers which is another reason why dodge might be better.

I think unless yer a tank which is meant to take hits, hp wouldn't be as useful. For many other types, you can probably get away from most fights without taking damage and a little added bonus in hp isn't going to help much if you're health is low to begin with.

I would have to say that your choice in how to build runes depend largely on the preferred champion types being played.

And btw statistical averages hardly matter in games.


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Carados

Senior Member

05-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeonstorm View Post
I think the point that has been made is flat hp is rarely ever gonna save you, whereas dodge has the possibility of negating huge amounts of dmg. However, ofc, if you have over 2.59k health, then dodge is better even on average.
The point of flat HP isn't to save you late game, it's to save you early game during level 1 team fights, level 1 ganks, and level 1 first blood attempts.

At that point in the game, having 1k HP makes a huge difference.


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Aeonstorm

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Senior Member

05-16-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carados View Post
The point of flat HP isn't to save you late game, it's to save you early game during level 1 team fights, level 1 ganks, and level 1 first blood attempts.

At that point in the game, having 1k HP makes a huge difference.
Oh wait srry i meant hp/lvl my bad


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reverseshades

Senior Member

05-16-2010

How many times have you guys walked away from a fight with below 100 hp? think about it

you have your own reaction time , more hp = less time it takes for you to die

dodge = sure you might dodge a few hits still going to get spiked faster



As far as items go don't start bringing up items , sword of the divine ; madred bloodrazer ; GG