Hp per lvl seals > dodge seals

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DreamyDays

Senior Member

05-14-2010

There is also the thing, people tend to think conservatively when they face "chances".

If they notice you have dodge, they are going to consider your EHP as much higher, thus playing "safe", rather than being bold and risking "lucky crit/dodge" later on.

Also, better early game means better snowballing.

Lastly, it is not exactly easy to counter dodge.
Armor/MR has a lot of penetration items.
HP has a lot of % based skills.
Dodge has only 1 item, SotD. That only applies to 1 person, in the sense that it is a buff to the user of the item, not a debuff.

Overall, I think dodge > hp/lvl.


BTW, they should increase the benefits of Flat HP seals a bit..... 7.5 HP per rune maybe?


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LocalKiller

Senior Member

05-14-2010

HP/Lvl will absorb one extra attack from a DPS carry (200dmg) around late game. From then on, all the effort in your seals are put to waste since you lost the advantage in the extra HP ceiling while dodge can still benefit from dodging a few more attacks. Also, a lot of carries get up to 50% crit late game. HP/LvL will not save you from those crits, dodge will. Considering infinity/PD crits are around 500+, no HP/LvL will keep you alive from that.


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Reep

Senior Member

05-14-2010

I am an avid user of HP per level runes. Why? Because I can get Sheen, Boots, and Glacial Shroud on Alistar without having to buy a single HP item, while still being a completely monster. HP is invaluable, and the pure fact that HP is infinitely more useful against casters leads me to believe that my investment was not a mistake.

ITT: People who don't understand probability.


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Treeshark

Member

05-14-2010

I was under the impression that Riot had already scaled all mitigation stats to EHP. They have someone there very on the ball with mechanics.

Can someone who knows confirm if that is true or false?

And for those who don't know what it means:
It means that getting 1 point of armor, MR, or dodge will increase your effective health pool by the same amount no matter how much you already have. (note: not the same PERCENTAGE, the same AMOUNT, like "100 EHP")

So is that true? I had understood it to be so from earlier mechanics discussion.


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DreamyDays

Senior Member

05-14-2010

AFAIK.........
Yes, mostly. But not dodge.
Each dodge increases EHP by a PERCENT of what you have already.

The following numbers assume that the champion has no dodge originally, and buys an item that gives only 10% dodge.

0 items :
0% dodge -> 0% more EHP
1 items :
10% dodge -> 11.111...% more EHP (compared to 0 dodge)
2 items :
19% dodge -> 23.456....% more EHP (compared to 0 dodge)
3 items :
27.1% dodge -> 37.1742% more EHP (compared to 0 dodge)

Hint :
(1.11111...)^2 = (1.23456).


Well, maybe they already accounted for this....
Checking in-game character stat window, dodge is displayed as a number, without any %.
Maybe that means that they use some clever formula to make dodge into a linear stat in regards to EHP.


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Treeshark

Member

05-14-2010

Yes I think I recall that they scaled even dodge to EHP. I remember being impressed at their grasp of mechanics to figure that out. Although it kind of takes the fun out of min-maxing.


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DreamyDays

Senior Member

05-14-2010

Gees. They are really genius.

However, that would mean that a healthy mix of HP, dodge, Ar, MR will provide the maximum EHP, the exact mix being dependent on the incoming damage type :P

I still say, dodge > hp/lvl.


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WulfDragoon

Member

05-14-2010

Hey guys, just somethings you might like to consider from a mathematicians perspective:

Flat Hp works on laws of average because your HP is a fixed rate, and the hits is almost flat as well (i'm assuming we aren't going to talk about critical chance and damage, because my math isn't up for it.) so lets take one of these situations:

Quote:
You have 3000 HP. A melee guy is hitting you for 500 HP a strike. You have 6.75% chance to dodge. On average you will dodge about 1 in 15 strikes. He'll kill you in 6 strikes. So its no help whatsoever on average.


If you took the hp/per lvl you'd have an extra 174.96 health at lvl 18. You'd take 7 strikes to kill."
you are forgetting one important thing though: dodge is a chance, so you can't just look use averages. "Law of large numbers" states that experimental values (the values recorded) only approach theoretical values as the repeat of the experiment approaches infinity. 15 hits is not infinity.

Instead lets approach it from a statistical point of view and recognize dodge as what it is: a binomial probability. 6.75% dodge is a probability of success. Lets set a fixed number of trials at 6, and any successes k>0 means survival. I use a ti-85 "binompdf(6, .0675, 0)" to check for chance of death = .6575%. What does that mean?!?!

Only in 66% percent of the time does having only 6% dodge kill you. that means 34% of the time does a measly 6% dodge result in one OR more dodges saves your life. WOOOH!

Wait, lets change the scenario and make the dodge even better. Lets grab a Ninja Tabi and estimate your dodge chance at 1 in 5, 20%. So now use binompdf(6, 0.20, 0) = 26% of you never dodging. Which means in 74% of the possible cases you survive the 15 hit encounter. And in 34% of the cases (binomcdf (6, 0.2 , 1) ) you dodge more then one hit, and can actually win the fight. Crazy huh?

Now the fact is this is a statistical chance game. If you get ganked in the jungle and you die in fifteen hits, screaming "OMG my binomial statistical chance of survival was over 70%" isn't going to get you anywhere, where as HP might have saved you.

The point is, the small dodge chance is actually more then you think it is. So, where as flat HP gives diminishing returns over time, dodge actually holds up real well. If you guys have any questions on the math, I can explain it more


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Eppa

Senior Member

05-15-2010

^ dodge is multiplicative thus EH scales linearly


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Ragefest

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Senior Member

05-15-2010

HP per level is good stuff. How many times have you ran out of a fight mid and late game with 20-100 hps? I know I have TONS.

I like dodge on champs that with get nimbleness and HP per level on casters.