Hp per lvl seals > dodge seals

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AnAnarchist

Senior Member

05-14-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carados View Post
Consider this: You have 3100 HP. A guy is hitting you for 200 HP per strike. Your HP/level runes are worthless.
No. Just no. If you have 3100 HP with hp runes then you take 16 strikes to kill. You'd have 3100 - 174.96 = 2925.04 HP with the dodge runes. You'd dodge 1 in 15 strikes, meaning he'd take 16 strikes to kill you. They both have the same worth in your example except hp also helps against casters and towers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nicosharp View Post
Feel free to post what you like, but the reason dodge is better as a 'baseline' stat is because lvls 1-5 are more important than lvl 5 when you claim hp runes per lvl earn their real value. Team fights, ganks, and just periodic ranged champion damage at early levels is what sway games, and why I like having dodge early. also, you can dodge minions etc. so the overall value is just good all round for the pve aspects of the game and when u are harassing people in a creep wave. True negation i would take over hp anyday, but you do need your fair share of both.
I can see the argument about the early lvls being more important however the advantage dodge runes have here is literaly minute. We're talking 21 effective HP at lvl 1 (assuming dorans shield; number will vary very slightly according to champ, masteries). At lvl 3 with just a dorans shield dodge runes give you just 4 more EHP. At lvl 4 hp/ per lvl seals give 4 more EHP. So i was incorrect, hp/ per lvl are better at lvl4 not 5 in terms of EHP assumming use of dorans shield.

Another thing to consider is that the greatest part of harass early game is usually from abilities and therefor magic damage although this does depend on oposing champions. Also dodge doesn't help with tower shots.


Quote:
Originally Posted by national View Post
The reason that dodge seals (and any other defense, armor, magic resist) are better than HP per level is because you are hardly ever at full HP. HP runes give you EHP one time-- when you refill at fountain or happen to heal to full while away. Dodge and MR give you mitigation _every single attack_ (a chance in the case of dodge, and every magic damage for MR). Over the course of the game, dodge and MR and armor will provide hundreds of times the mitigation of HP runes. The only time HP runes are better is if you enter a fight at full health, and even then I question the math.
This argument is flawed. They don't give you more EHP one time because after you take damage you'll still be on more health than if you had taken damage without the hp runes. The only way this would hold true is if your dodge was high enough to dodge a reasonable number of attacks much more consistantly but if that were the case then we'd be talking about much better hp/per lvl runes to. Also I'd argue the fact that any player worth his salt will be on full health for a teamfight anyways, not that it matters.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Echo7 View Post
I am really starting to think people have no idea what eHP actually is, especially the guy who said 12 armor, 7 resist, or 10% AS > 6.5% dodge.

Nor do they realize the advantage negating damage has over having a minuscule higher pool to absorb damage with.

People seem to think that if someone is hitting for ****loads than dodge is obviously better because of the chance to completely negate the damage. This is plainly false.

Consider you have 3000 HP with 6.75% dodge runes. The guy is hitting for 1k damage. You'll take 3 shots 93.25% of the time. You'd take 4 with hp/per lvl runes.






Go on using dodge runes if you really must. But unless you're using them because that 21 EHP is vastly important to you during lvl1 you're pretty much in the wrong. I'll be using hp/ per lvl seals and reaping the rewards.


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Aeonstorm

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Senior Member

05-14-2010

Dodge runes become equal to HP/lvl runes (purely EHP-wise) at 2590, which the majority of carries will get above, because of frozen mallet. Also, it blocks on hit effects as stated before. And for jax, the second most played hero in the game, it is an absolute must for obvious reasons.

Oh, and u keep saying how HP/lvl EHP is better than dodge EHP as its guaranteed. Well, if the guy is hitting u for 1k, ur gonna die whether it takes 3 or 4 hits. It does not matter unless either he is on 10 health and about to die, or perhaps u have a blink, in which case maybe it might possibly be better in 5% of cases. However, if you get dodge you could block 2 or even 3 of his hits, which helps vastly more. Also nimbleness owns


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Saavedra

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Senior Member

05-14-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnAnarchist View Post
People seem to think that if someone is hitting for ****loads than dodge is obviously better because of the chance to completely negate the damage. This is plainly false.

Consider you have 3000 HP with 6.75% dodge runes. The guy is hitting for 1k damage. You'll take 3 shots 93.25% of the time. You'd take 4 with hp/per lvl runes.
When I read his argument, this was my first thought, that against high damage, dodge would be better. So I thought about this, and I thought, well maybe it's because he used 3000 HP. Maybe if the HP you picked was slightly higher, or maybe if the damage done was slightly higher AND the hit points were higher, dodge would be better. So I made up a spread sheet.

The spread sheet lets you enter a value for your characters maximum health, and it shows the difference between the number of strikes it takes to kill you with dodge runes and with hp/level. It has a column for many different values of damage you are taking, but it turns out that they are always going in the same direction. I assumed that dodge runes simply increase the number of strikes it takes to kill you by 6.75%.

What it shows is that the lower your maximum hit points, the better flat hit point runes do, and the higher your maximum hit points, the better dodge runes do. The breaking point is in the range of 2520-2660 hit points, before runes. So if your champion's hit points before runes are in that range, it will make no difference at all. As your hit points start to get higher, dodge runes get better very slowly. Not until your max hp (before runes) gets to about 3350 does it take 1 extra hit to kill you if you assume 100 damage per hit.

The bigger the hit, the longer it takes for dodge to overwhelm hp/level. It is my opinion based on this that most characters would benefit more from hp/level, although there may be some tanks that stack hp that could benefit slightly more from dodge in limited circumstances. But even in those circumstances, your max hp would have to be insanely high for dodge to help you against the BIG hits, ie the ones that matter.

I am forced to agree with the OP that hp/level is better than dodge in almost all circumstances, barring champion synergy (ie Jax benefitting from dodge, etc.).

Take a look for yourself and let me know if I did anything wrong.


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TechYS

Senior Member

05-14-2010

There's a pretty big unseen problem with Leaguecraft's EHP calculation. It doesn't take penetrations and such into account. Using that to show how HP/Lv is going to have a greater impact in terms of EHP than dodge runes is not taking everything into account.

Btw, no one mentioned dodge dodging Lichbane procs? It probably won't save you from that dark matter falling from the sky, but it will help in terms of not getting hit by a 700 dmg normal attack from an AP Veigar wielding that Lichbane. (it can be 400 dmg after AR, or if he has 1200 AP getting hit by 700 dmg Lichbane proc is possible even after AR) This is an extreme example but you guys should know what I'm refering to.

And hey, science is about providing hypothesis about something in nature, do experiments, get results, and see if your hypothesis is true or not, and repeat to see if result is stable or is it just from pure luck. It is not jamming numbers into your argument and claiming its science. Math, by itself, is not science.


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Cactot

Senior Member

05-14-2010

The higher your natural hp + HP from items in your build the more dodge is going to help against physical attacks. Also, if you already have +dodge, the +dodge will help more, as the the higher your dodge percentage the better it scales.

For an easy example:
Going from 0-20% dodge gets you +25% ehp
Going from 20-40% dodge gets you +33% ehp
Going from 40-60% dodge gets you +50% ehp
etc.

HP works the Opposite
Adding 100hp to 1000hp gets you +10% ehp
Adding 100hp to 2000hp gets you +5% ehp
etc.

Also, dodge is obviously worthless against spells, which is a significant disadvantage. It is really a tossup and situational. Dodge is also better against people with high armor penetration in many cases.


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Eppa

Senior Member

05-14-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cactot View Post
The higher your natural hp + HP from items in your build the more dodge is going to help against physical attacks. Also, if you already have +dodge, the +dodge will help more, as the the higher your dodge percentage the better it scales.

For an easy example:
Going from 0-20% dodge gets you +25% ehp
Going from 20-40% dodge gets you +33% ehp
Going from 40-60% dodge gets you +50% ehp
etc.

HP works the Opposite
Adding 100hp to 1000hp gets you +10% ehp
Adding 100hp to 2000hp gets you +5% ehp
etc.

Also, dodge is obviously worthless against spells, which is a significant disadvantage. It is really a tossup and situational. Dodge is also better against people with high armor penetration in many cases.
That is kinda true but dodge is multiplicative so the gain is lost.


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Jazzminkey

Member

05-14-2010

I <3 RNG. Dodge runes FOR LIFE


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AnyOtherEnemy

Senior Member

05-14-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnAnarchist View Post


This argument is flawed. They don't give you more EHP one time because after you take damage you'll still be on more health than if you had taken damage without the hp runes. The only way this would hold true is if your dodge was high enough to dodge a reasonable number of attacks much more consistantly but if that were the case then we'd be talking about much better hp/per lvl runes to. Also I'd argue the fact that any player worth his salt will be on full health for a teamfight anyways, not that it matters.



.
What you say here doesn't make any sense. You agree with me - HP runes give you HP once. Once you've used it, yes, you are at a higher health amount, but all further attacks are at your base 0 dodge and base mitigation. Whereas with dodge, you have the potential to dodge every single attack. Let's say you dodge a Soraka autoattack. That's **** damage. But let's say you dodge a Mundo autoattack. That's A LOT of damage. And this chance to dodge applies every single hit. So over the course of your lifebar, you can dodge (and likely will) way damage than an HP rune provides.

Let's put it this way. You can't argue with the following, I promise.

One HP / level rune gives you 19 health at level 18. Just for kicks, let's say that you ALWAYS get 19 health for simplicity.

One dodge rune gives you 0.75% chance to dodge, which means one out of every 133 attacks on average will become zero damage. Every attack in the game is going to do more than 19 damage. Thus, you only have to dodge a single attack to have mitigated more damage than your HP rune already (per fountain run or refill via other means). Additionally, since MOST attacks do even more than this, and enemy champion attacks will do many, many times more damage than 19, (consider Paarrrley or any melee champ's attacks, or even an Ashe arrow--ANYTHING), you don't have to get attacked 133 times to be equal mitigation to the HP rune. You may only have to get attacked 50 times and dodge a single one of them. If I dodge an Ashe arrow (REGULAR arrow I mean) I consider my dodge rune has provided be more benefit in that one attack than 3 HP runes might provide. And let's not forget most of the game that HP rune is providing even less HP than 19.

So the question is, how many times do you get attacked, and what's the magnitude of that damage. The fact is for most champions who are playing well, they're going to attacked more times than enough and with high enough damages that the dodge runes are going to provide more mitigation than an HP rune.


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Eppa

Senior Member

05-14-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by national View Post
What you say here doesn't make any sense. You agree with me - HP runes give you HP once. Once you've used it, yes, you are at a higher health amount, but all further attacks are at your base 0 dodge and base mitigation. Whereas with dodge, you have the potential to dodge every single attack. Let's say you dodge a Soraka autoattack. That's **** damage. But let's say you dodge a Mundo autoattack. That's A LOT of damage. And this chance to dodge applies every single hit. So over the course of your lifebar, you can dodge (and likely will) way damage than an HP rune provides.

Let's put it this way. You can't argue with the following, I promise.

One HP / level rune gives you 19 health at level 18. Just for kicks, let's say that you ALWAYS get 19 health for simplicity.

One dodge rune gives you 0.75% chance to dodge, which means one out of every 133 attacks on average will become zero damage. Every attack in the game is going to do more than 19 damage. Thus, you only have to dodge a single attack to have mitigated more damage than your HP rune already (per fountain run or refill via other means). Additionally, since MOST attacks do even more than this, and enemy champion attacks will do many, many times more damage than 19, (consider Paarrrley or any melee champ's attacks, or even an Ashe arrow--ANYTHING), you don't have to get attacked 133 times to be equal mitigation to the HP rune. You may only have to get attacked 50 times and dodge a single one of them. If I dodge an Ashe arrow (REGULAR arrow I mean) I consider my dodge rune has provided be more benefit in that one attack than 3 HP runes might provide. And let's not forget most of the game that HP rune is providing even less HP than 19.

So the question is, how many times do you get attacked, and what's the magnitude of that damage. The fact is for most champions who are playing well, they're going to attacked more times than enough and with high enough damages that the dodge runes are going to provide more mitigation than an HP rune.
Did you read any of the calculations in this thread?


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AnyOtherEnemy

Senior Member

05-14-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eppa View Post
Did you read any of the calculations in this thread?
Jebus H. Christos how easy do I have to make it?

You dodge an attack, you're going to mitigate a bunch of damage. A lot more than an HP rune provides. As the enemies do more and more damage, you're going to be mitigating a lot more damage. It has the potential, for example, to mitigate 100 or 200 damage in one dodge. That's more HP than your entire, useless HP rune set provides. There is a reason you see skilled people taking dodge over HP, and it's because it's better. You're just stubborn.

You know what? just for the heck of it, I will show you why his calculation is completely wrong.

Quote:
Consider this.

You have 3000 HP. A melee guy is hitting you for 500 HP a strike. You have 6.75% chance to dodge. On average you will dodge about 1 in 15 strikes. He'll kill you in 6 strikes. So its no help whatsoever on average.

If you took the hp/per lvl you'd have an extra 174.96 health at lvl 18. You'd take 7 strikes to kill.
This calculation is an utterly ridiculous afront to statistics. The OP is saying that because you have 6.75% chance to dodge, the attack which will be dodged will on average be the 15th strike. This is wrong, wrong wrong. Probability applies to every hit. Hence, you could dodge his first strike, or his 6th, or any of the 6 strikes it takes to kill you. You have a 1/15 chance to dodge EACH ONE of his 6 strikes that it takes to kill you. So yes, dodge does help you in this situation.

More formally, this is a true statement:
An outcome with probability 6.75% happens on average once every fifteen times the event occurs (each time the die is rolled).

This is a patently false statement which underlies the OP's examples:
An outcome with probability 6.75% happens on average every 15th time the event occurs (the die is rolled).

There is a big but subtle difference between the two statements above. The difference is between "every fifteen" and "every 15th." They are not the same. If you roll a 6 sided die 100 times, you will probably count very close to 17 of each 1,2,3,4,5,6. But you will NOT likely see the numbers show up IN ORDER, "1 2 3 4 5 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 etc." Think about that. Please go read a stats book, or just think with some common sense.