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Hp per lvl seals > dodge seals

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Captain Shin

Senior Member

05-19-2010

Ok, IMO, the only people who have any business taking "tanky" runes are either outright tanks, or people who synergize with it inherently [Jax/Siv], or have a % blind ability [if it's 100% blind, not much point]. In general, if you wanna DPS/Nuke for your team, then you need to maximise your DPS/nuking potential

"But captain what if I get hit?"
"Ahar Matey, depends on who you are"

As a Nuker, your purpose is to dish out a bazillion damage in 3 seconds. That's it. If you die afterwards, that's nobody's business, because for most intents and purposes, you've done your job. You don't need the extra durability that 200 HP gets you. One could make the argument that this is precisely the 200 HP that allows you to live long enough for another spell to CD, but that's a moot point; if you really want to outlive that initial burst, buy a Guardian at some point. That will DEFINITELY give you the extra durability you need for a second round of burst.
As a DPSer, you MAY want the extra durability, but as a DPSer, you either have a mechanism that allows you to avoid getting hit [invisibility, or OMFGWTFitshoudiniwithcards], or you have have teamates that are MEANT to PREVENT you from getting hit and/or healing you and/or taunting and/or initiating. As such, if you're going for an extra marginal something[anything] you want to go for some extra marginal damage. [of course, if you are going solo queue, then... but well that's a different story].

So yeah, if you look at proper tanks.
ok you're a tank. Well, i'm not talking "using the fact that you are inherently a tank to build a DPS/ish champ using sheen and the like" kind of tank, because in that case, you're really a tanky dps, and should stick with the strategy above. I'm talking "my primary purpose is to sponge damage for my team" tank. In that case, you have at least 3k HP end-game, going on 4-5k depending on whether or not you got warmog/leviathan stacks or you happen to be the MFing Cho Gath. In that case, +200 HP at the end-game level is just pathetic. Essentially, if you are THAT beef, and have built your resistances according to their team comp, nothing short of sustained focused fire is going to make as much as a dent in your HP, so 200 HP up or down means nothing.
Dodge, as the maths indicates, gives FAR more EHP at the relevant HP range. Of course, there's the off-chance that the enemy team is going pure AP, but in that case, you're not really concerned because you can just stack MR, not to mention Quicksilver for CC. Dodge also procs Nimbleness. Having High Armor doesn't negate the usefulness of Dodge in anyway; it essentially means you can initiate inlane, and get free Nimbleness procs from getting hit by minions [an often neglected aspect of nimbleness].
So yeah, if you're a tank, and you're planning on tanking proper, get dodge. Sure it doesn't help with turrets, but with 300 Armor, it's not like the turret hurts you in the first place [which you will get if you are planning on Tanking turrets for your team].

Also, the "100 HP left" argument only really stands if, and only IF, you walk into a fight with 1100 HP, get bursted, and walk out with 100 HP. If you were lingering inlane with 300 HP, part of which was your +100 from Runes, Ezreal ulties and you have 40 HP left, sure that 100 HP saved you, but imo, you're bloody greedy/stupid for staying in lane with that much HP in the first place.
As for level 6 arguments... well, seriously, if you have concerns about level 6 burst damage, then go back and buy HP items just before the other guy hits level 6. Ruby is cheap as, and builds into a number of useful items. If you want to keep your laning potential up, get a teleport - good timing with recall and port will generally allow you to go out and back in with minimal XP loss.
If you want laning potential as a nuker/dps, but still want to ***** exhaust/ignite do what the pros do; buy stat boosting pots and pop them like candy. If you want laning potential, want to ***** exhaust/ignite, but are too cheap/don't have the guts to fork out the gold for the pots, then you are very likely to be successful up unto the point you VS someone with Cleanse, case in which you will be QQing to the max.
As for HP helping in level 1 team fights... seriously, if you are playing at that ELO, you'll presumably have the wards/summoner spells it takes to allow for your tank to get in first [usually, it will be a person built EXPRESSEDLY for this purpose] while your DPS/Nukes hammer them with your unnaturally high damage output. If you are the said tank, then you'll end up having 3k HP anyway, so while the HP Quints/Runes help for that early fight, you'll probably want to stick with dodge for the reasons mentioned above.
If you are a tank, more often than not, your 20-100 HP survival is more likely to be a result of your 21 defensive masteries than anything else.


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D2Freak

Senior Member

05-19-2010

Quote:
Lawful:
Lets be honest, against a opponent that deals 600+ crits = your dodge ain't gonna help ****, you'll still die in under two seconds even with over 50% dodge, tested , proven, my master yi ate a jax with 75% dodge in a moment.


And my jax with **% dodge ate master yi. Prove it or it didn't happen.


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kordd

Member

05-19-2010

Quote:
carados:
because

a) you don't tank towers unless you're stacking ehp, so you may as well get dodge anyways because it provides the most mitigation for runes.

B) armor is a ****ty version of dodge. Mr is blue, not yellow.

C) if you need hp runes, you get flat hp. Hp runes are only effective during laning, so flat is best.

D) the amount of hp you get late game from hp/level is insignicant, while the amount of hp you get from hp/flat is a large chunk at level 1, allowing you to get easy first bloods, avoid ganks, and win level 1 team fights.

E) this game snowballs. If you want hp runes, you want it when you're most likely to be harassed, when you're laning while farming. If you need defense past that, mitigating the carry, the person who has been farming the entire game.

F) nimbleness is really good.

G) dodge dodges on hit effects. Hp/level doesn't.


boooooooooyah!!!!! Bazingaaaa!


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reverseshades

Senior Member

05-20-2010

All in all just goes back to the argument , if your not using them for early game why the **** do you have them in the first place. Why the hell are you getting dodge runes if your not a character with natural dodge or a tank getting ninja tabi.


Bottom line is to stop ****ing building your characters into **** that they aren't meant to , just find the character suited for the job there is **** near 50 of them it can't be all that fu(king difficult.


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reverseshades

Senior Member

05-20-2010

Also adding onto the fact is , Dodge is only normal attacks , of which is the mediocre amount of the damage 9/10.

Skills oftenly enough believe it or not people , Hurt MORE than normal attacks. So simply saying that since you have 6.5% more survivability because you can dodge 6.5% of normal attacks is quite inaccurate. Thats just simply assuming some dumb @ss is going to and normal attack you to death.


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DreamyDays

Senior Member

05-20-2010

Good point, sir.
Usually runes help a lot more at early games.

But if all you want is early game survivability, get Flat HP, Flat Armor, etc.
If you don't think they are worth the IP, then get Dodge.
It is like, second best early game IMO.
At least it gives more consistent benefit during the game.
Unlike HP/lvl, where the "benefits" show up late game.



If you want early game power, why use hp/lvl seals? You have Flat HP seals, they provide more HP than HP/Lvl seals at lvl 1, where that additional HP will be actually most important.

Sure, they crossover at a low level, but when HP/lvl runes become more significant than Flat HP, you will have more than 600 health without hp runes anyway.
AFAIK at lvl 6, HP/Lvl seals provide about 20 more health than Flat HP.
Is that +20 really worth it, considering that even squishes will be like 600 health?




Your argument about dodge applying only on physical damage is much better.

But then, why do people get Armor/MR anyway?
They only protect against one type of damage only.
Everyone should get HP, because that helps for both.
Or, people should get HP/MR, because skills are the biggest damage in game.


Dodge provides an additional level of EHP against physical damage.
Also, it is rather hard to get from items.
Therefore, getting some Dodge from runes is a good idea - it is not like you want to get Phantom Dancer on every character.

If you want to tell me that Dodge runes are utterly wasted against full-mage teams....
BV+FoN for everyone and your team is gonna roll them all over, no?
If they have 1 DPS, then Dodge will do its job.


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Magicians

Senior Member

05-20-2010

so u dodge blitz power fist, you just saved ur life. hp/5 lvl doesnt.


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True Bandito

Senior Member

05-20-2010

Quote:
so u dodge blitz power fist, you just saved ur life. hp/5 lvl doesnt.
So you just survived Karthus's Requiem with 20 HP to spare. Dodge runes won't save you.

Honestly, both runes have their moments to shine. HP runes are just more predictable while dodge runes give potential overall more benefit.


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Eppa

Senior Member

05-21-2010

Quote:
DreamyDays:

But then, why do people get Armor/MR anyway?
They only protect against one type of damage only.
Everyone should get HP, because that helps for both.
Or, people should get HP/MR, because skills are the biggest damage in game.
.


Hp lets you choose in game what you want and hp per level scales a little better to late game. I think im getting both.

Dodge for when I play support and others that go 9 points into defence and magic resist per level for everything else. I have really changed my mind about dodge :V


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unentschieden

Senior Member

05-21-2010

Quote:
xXFallen OneXx:
Also adding onto the fact is , Dodge is only normal attacks , of which is the mediocre amount of the damage 9/10.

Skills oftenly enough believe it or not people , Hurt MORE than normal attacks. So simply saying that since you have 6.5% more survivability because you can dodge 6.5% of normal attacks is quite inaccurate. Thats just simply assuming some dumb @ss is going to and normal attack you to death.



If you only play squishies yeah. Burst damage will kill you 9/10 Times. That is the point in fact. But as a Tank (nonTanks shouldn´t take defensive Seals) substained Damage is much more dangerous, especially since you won´t get hit by burst in the first place.