the -20% healing debuff

First Riot Post
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Validan

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Senior Member

08-27-2011

They balanced the whole thing around . . . . . Teemo. And I couldn't be happier.

Movespeed? Yes.
Stealth for escaping/ganking people who are taking your points? Yes.
Shrooms that last for 10 minutes (half of the game, really)....... WHEEEEE~

Practicing up on my turbo-troll Teemo in SR so by the time Dominion comes out I'll be ready.


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Glaedren

Senior Member

08-27-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrusRuss View Post
Its just that you dont understand their rationalisation

Basically Riot have "figured out" that sustain in general is 20% OP than what it should be on Dominion. Higher sustain = more ability to push, capture or hold. Without this nerf it would be 20% more beneficial to play high sustain builds/champs because they dont need to go back to base often + they can push/capture/hold better.

So to "level" the playing field and give non-sustain champs/builds viability they are nerfing sustain by 20% overall.

tl;dr they are nerfing sustain by 20% because that brings it in line with non-sustain champs. Basically sustain is 20% OP right now.

PS: Champs that rely on farming to maximise skills (nasus, viegar and sion) will not be played simply because farming is not viable mainly due to time.
Beware MATH BELOW ye be warned.

A single aspect of the game cannot be 20% overpowered for every champion. It's simply a logical impossibility. Also, thank you for proving my point. The only possible reason they could have for this is for keeping games short. When you have sustain it is at the expense of something else, generally speaking, damage.

Sustain is a form of defense (just weaker). Without looking at champions, as their abilities are more fluid, let's look at items. Really it's items (and gold compensation) that are most affected anyway.

Force of Nature. One of the more popular health regen items. This item is pure defense through Magic Resist and health regen with a little move speed boost utility for good measure. Take into account the regen penalty. Its stats go from: 76 MR+40 HP/5+8% MS+0.35% HP/5 to 76 MR+32 HP/5+8% MS+0.28% HP/5. Doesn't look so bad on paper. Really it isn't, but half of the items abilities are penalized by 20% and, here's the important part, the item's gold price REMAINS THE SAME.

Accounting for half of the item's stats (the passive is actually worth more but for the sake of the math and the fact I don't know how much more we will say it's all worth half) being nerfed the price of the item should be reduced. Half of 20% is 10%, pretty easy. So the item is only worth 90% of its previous value but still costs the same. That may sound okay for one item, but what if you take more sustain items? That 90% adds up. Pretty soon you have a full complement of items but your items, only 90% (or very likely less) effective on their own, now make you only 59% effective compared to the person with items unaffected by the nerf.

Obviously this is worst case scenario with someone stacking full regen items (I'm looking at you Mordekaiser with FoN, a Spirit Visage, and 3 Gunblades) but keep in mind that every item with regen effects that you take reduces your effectiveness by 90% (more depending).

If these items were all cheaper in Dominion based on how nerfed they will be things would be fine. Items are balanced on their cost. But at the moment if you buy 5 regen items you'll have spent the same amount of gold as the guy with completely unaffected items but be nearly half as powerful.

As the absolute worst offense this has I would like to introduce you to the new two worst items in the game: Stark's Fervor and Will of the Ancients. Because a large portion of their item budget is spent on being Auras these items on an individual basis are already lacking. But the way they were balanced, for being in team fights giving abilities to allies, these items are 20% worse for every champion in range on your team. I suppose if you have a mostly AD team Starks might still be viable purely for the ArP, but viable doesn't mean cost balanced.

All of this seems like a kneejerk reaction to someone doing well with a good passive or something in testing.

Let me tell you, as someone who's played World of Warcraft for 6 years, kneejerk balance reactions are the worst possible thing you can do as a developer EVER.

Something else I thought of while writing this. Did it ever occur to you that stacking health will be just as powerful, if not more so, than health regen? It's cheaper, isn't nerfed, and often comes with other great benefits as well. Someone wearing a Sunfire Cape is going to stand at/under a turret longer and do more damage than someone with a Starks. And very likely be healthy enough to continue going without having to sit and regen somewhere after it's captured. Just something to consider.

There is no tl;dr if you looked down here for one then just go away, everything I wrote is relevant to my argument.


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Shini Laser

Senior Member

08-27-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glaedren View Post
Beware MATH BELOW ye be warned.

A single aspect of the game cannot be 20% overpowered for every champion. It's simply a logical impossibility. Also, thank you for proving my point. The only possible reason they could have for this is for keeping games short. When you have sustain it is at the expense of something else, generally speaking, damage.

Sustain is a form of defense (just weaker). Without looking at champions, as their abilities are more fluid, let's look at items. Really it's items (and gold compensation) that are most affected anyway.

Force of Nature. One of the more popular health regen items. This item is pure defense through Magic Resist and health regen with a little move speed boost utility for good measure. Take into account the regen penalty. Its stats go from: 76 MR+40 HP/5+8% MS+0.35% HP/5 to 76 MR+32 HP/5+8% MS+0.28% HP/5. Doesn't look so bad on paper. Really it isn't, but half of the items abilities are penalized by 20% and, here's the important part, the item's gold price REMAINS THE SAME.

Accounting for half of the item's stats (the passive is actually worth more but for the sake of the math and the fact I don't know how much more we will say it's all worth half) being nerfed the price of the item should be reduced. Half of 20% is 10%, pretty easy. So the item is only worth 90% of its previous value but still costs the same. That may sound okay for one item, but what if you take more sustain items? That 90% adds up. Pretty soon you have a full complement of items but your items, only 90% (or very likely less) effective on their own, now make you only 59% effective compared to the person with items unaffected by the nerf.

Obviously this is worst case scenario with someone stacking full regen items (I'm looking at you Mordekaiser with FoN, a Spirit Visage, and 3 Gunblades) but keep in mind that every item with regen effects that you take reduces your effectiveness by 90% (more depending).

If these items were all cheaper in Dominion based on how nerfed they will be things would be fine. Items are balanced on their cost. But at the moment if you buy 5 regen items you'll have spent the same amount of gold as the guy with completely unaffected items but be nearly half as powerful.

As the absolute worst offense this has I would like to introduce you to the new two worst items in the game: Stark's Fervor and Will of the Ancients. Because a large portion of their item budget is spent on being Auras these items on an individual basis are already lacking. But the way they were balanced, for being in team fights giving abilities to allies, these items are 20% worse for every champion in range on your team. I suppose if you have a mostly AD team Starks might still be viable purely for the ArP, but viable doesn't mean cost balanced.

All of this seems like a kneejerk reaction to someone doing well with a good passive or something in testing.

Let me tell you, as someone who's played World of Warcraft for 6 years, kneejerk balance reactions are the worst possible thing you can do as a developer EVER.

Something else I thought of while writing this. Did it ever occur to you that stacking health will be just as powerful, if not more so, than health regen? It's cheaper, isn't nerfed, and often comes with other great benefits as well. Someone wearing a Sunfire Cape is going to stand at/under a turret longer and do more damage than someone with a Starks. And very likely be healthy enough to continue going without having to sit and regen somewhere after it's captured. Just something to consider.

There is no tl;dr if you looked down here for one then just go away, everything I wrote is relevant to my argument.
With how long Riot has been working on this, I doubt it is a knee jerk reaction. With everything else so carefully planned out, of all the things to "knee jerk on", a perma-aura?

I play WoW also, and with how much time they have with patches, it seems they put little thought in their patches. While Riot does make their fair share of mistakes, they recognize mistakes and attempt to rectify them. Sometimes they do it wrong, but after looking at years of patch notes from Blizz and Riot, I can say at least Riot tries. As I said earlier, if Riot feels from public play that 20% might be a tad too high, they'll reduce the penalty by 15% - a mere 6.25% buff.

While it is tempting to say that the aura is going to **** a nice chunk of champions over, we truly should just wait until Dominion's release.


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M5 GoZu Pepper

Recruiter

08-27-2011

arg im so sad now


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Jadarok

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Senior Member

08-28-2011

Quote:
Doesn't look so bad on paper. Really it isn't, but half of the items abilities are penalized by 20% and, here's the important part, the item's gold price REMAINS THE SAME.
It's not so much "penalized". The reasoning is that healing is MORE effective in Crystal Scar. Meaning you'd be getting more for your money compared to it's use in Summoner's Rift. So they are using this global nerf to prevent those items, and some champs, from becoming OP.

They danger of having to go back to base (or dying) is important to this game mode. Otherwise you could have certain comps sitting on 3 points right off the bat and never moving because they have the sustain to let them stay there and never having to go back to base. They want this game to feel like a tug-of-war, not a turtlefest

Plus there are more buffs in this aura as well that will effect the game. Damage buffs and LOTS of many regen. Some champs with mana based sustain will be helped by this...in a way.

The point is, your Maths only make sense if sustain had the same value, but it won't, it will be more valuable, hence they cost of said items aren't reduced. Plus I'm sure if it turns out that Riot was wrong and their internal play testing was off, it's very easy to tweak the global aura in a patch.


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Brackhar

Features Designer

08-29-2011
3 of 3 Riot Posts

The 20% reduction works the same way as Mortal Strike does, which I believe at the current time does not effect regen and lifesteal. There has been some discussion from the live team if mortal strike should affect regen and lifesteal, but I'm not aware of what the outcome of that conversation was.


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rumples

Senior Member

08-29-2011

oh really? hmm this entire thread is in the wrong direction then lol.


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Fox P McCloud

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Senior Member

08-29-2011

I really don't see how Vladimir is going to be able to have any effect other than his ult in team-fights for Dominion; the only thing he has is the ability to not die, at this point, but with that nerfed in Dominion....well, I don't see how he's going to be effective, at all, in this mode.


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GKFlint

Member

08-29-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkimer View Post
arg im so sad now
Yeah, I was really looking forward to playing Swain in Dominion, but after this... meh.


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bigmontana

Senior Member

08-29-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox P McCloud View Post
I really don't see how Vladimir is going to be able to have any effect other than his ult in team-fights for Dominion; the only thing he has is the ability to not die, at this point, but with that nerfed in Dominion....well, I don't see how he's going to be effective, at all, in this mode.
So in an average 1v1 or 2v2 scenario if you are vlad and you win, lets assume you healed about 1/4 your hp from transfusion over the course of the fight. Hell lets be generous and say 1/2 your hp healed. So in dominion you'll now heal only for 40% instead of 50%. If you're winning ALL your fights ending at 10% hp or less then yes, this will make a difference. If you're OVER 10% hp when the fight ends (or healed less than my VERY generous 50%) then...you'll still win. People get so up in arms about changes but if you actually stop to THINK (hard I know) about the effects, its usually a minor inconvenience rather than a drastic change. Basically...stop all the QQ, heals in small skirmishes where it takes several seconds for players to die are much more noticeable than in a 5v5 where focus can blow someone up instantly. Vlad will be fine. Healers will be fine. Stop the qq