the -20% healing debuff

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Jadarok

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Senior Member

08-25-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraytex View Post
Computer Scientist - we use computers for...everything.

I'm telling you, the new form of QQ from characters with healing/spell vamp/lifesteal will be: "if this was summoner's rift I would have killed him."

Frankly, I'm a firm believer that there should not be a distinction between balance on different maps.
I am wondering why this Crystal Scare "buff/debuff" is so important. I would have thought the removal and addition of different items would be enough. There must have to some early playtesting where certain heroes felt broken so they thought this would fix it...?


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MAD Bahamut

Member

08-26-2011

I wouldnt complain about this until you have tested it out for yourselves, then you guys can go ape **** if you want. But wait to test it first, then rage at riot to patch ****.


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Glaedren

Senior Member

08-26-2011

There is a tl;dr at the end if you are too **** lazy to read.

There is no problem having the same sustain in Dominion as we have in SR OTHER than possibly lengthening games due to the fact that sustain will make it easier to harass leading to more neutral point durations.

By reducing these effects you are making certain champions, runes, masteries, and ITEMS worse by deflating their effects by 20%.

No one is going to take Nasus (no minion farm for Q AND his lifesteal, both passive and ultimate, are bunk? Thanks for screwing my favorite champion for the new game mode), no one is going to take Vladimir, no one (smart) is going to take Mordekaiser (no sustain = eventually your own spells are going to be killing you), they may not be screwed but Warwick and Morgana's passives are worthless. Like stated earlier champions who rely on lifesteal effects (bought or otherwise) are screwed (off the top of my head: Yi, Tryndamere, Irelia, Sivir, Sion). HP regen runes are worthless (just when they were starting to become popular), regen masteries are now useless. No one is going to buy things like Force of Nature and Spirit Visage anymore, not when you could buy something else that doesn't have its effect for its gold cost gimped by 20%.

All in all, this should not make it into Dominion.

Okay so now that I've gotten the "QQ" argument out of my system I can honestly say I'm exaggerating quite a bit, but not enough that this global effect should still go into the final version of Dominion. The regen penalty should absolutely NOT be in Dominion, for the following reasons.

Most of those champions aren't really "screwed" (due to being hit by both minion farm AND regen I'm inclined to say Nasus might be, but I am biased as I said before, him being my favorite champion); however, no one who wants to be at full capacity for their team will ever bring those champions. You will bring a champion whose strengths are maximized by the Crystal Scar buff and who is not affected by the regen nerf. Same with the runes and items. If they are always going to be 20% worse for the rune slot/gold cost compared to something else you can get full power out of, then you won't use it.

I've played a lot of RPGs in my time and one thing I've learned about optimization is that you don't ever use something that has the same class/stat/item/gold budget as every other option, but has a penalty for some arbitrary reason. Old D&D had a lot of things like that, options with penalties for no other reason than "flavor". This regen penalty feels the exact same. I understand that there -is- a reason for it, however it is not a good enough reason. Although it's my opinion, I can say that it's not a good enough reason with absolute certainty, because something that, for us optimizers at least, effectively REMOVES champions, runes, masteries and items from our play in the new game mode would need to be necessary on a -dramatic- scale. Unless there's something that came up in testing that you guys haven't told us, there is absolutely -nothing- that rationalizes something this big.

tl;dr Sustain penalties have removed champions, items, runes and masteries from optimizing players "viable" pool of options, effectively penalizing the game. Known possible reasons are not good enough to rationalize this.


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Viselc

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Senior Member

08-26-2011

Sona gonna heal 16 HP for 65 Mana and 2 HP heal when target or she's ignite.


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rumples

Senior Member

08-26-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glaedren View Post
There is a tl;dr at the end if you are too **** lazy to read.

There is no problem having the same sustain in Dominion as we have in SR OTHER than possibly lengthening games due to the fact that sustain will make it easier to harass leading to more neutral point durations.

By reducing these effects you are making certain champions, runes, masteries, and ITEMS worse by deflating their effects by 20%.

No one is going to take Nasus (no minion farm for Q AND his lifesteal, both passive and ultimate, are bunk? Thanks for screwing my favorite champion for the new game mode), no one is going to take Vladimir, no one (smart) is going to take Mordekaiser (no sustain = eventually your own spells are going to be killing you), they may not be screwed but Warwick and Morgana's passives are worthless. Like stated earlier champions who rely on lifesteal effects (bought or otherwise) are screwed (off the top of my head: Yi, Tryndamere, Irelia, Sivir, Sion). HP regen runes are worthless (just when they were starting to become popular), regen masteries are now useless. No one is going to buy things like Force of Nature and Spirit Visage anymore, not when you could buy something else that doesn't have its effect for its gold cost gimped by 20%.

All in all, this should not make it into Dominion.

Okay so now that I've gotten the "QQ" argument out of my system I can honestly say I'm exaggerating quite a bit, but not enough that this global effect should still go into the final version of Dominion. The regen penalty should absolutely NOT be in Dominion, for the following reasons.

Most of those champions aren't really "screwed" (due to being hit by both minion farm AND regen I'm inclined to say Nasus might be, but I am biased as I said before, him being my favorite champion); however, no one who wants to be at full capacity for their team will ever bring those champions. You will bring a champion whose strengths are maximized by the Crystal Scar buff and who is not affected by the regen nerf. Same with the runes and items. If they are always going to be 20% worse for the rune slot/gold cost compared to something else you can get full power out of, then you won't use it.

I've played a lot of RPGs in my time and one thing I've learned about optimization is that you don't ever use something that has the same class/stat/item/gold budget as every other option, but has a penalty for some arbitrary reason. Old D&D had a lot of things like that, options with penalties for no other reason than "flavor". This regen penalty feels the exact same. I understand that there -is- a reason for it, however it is not a good enough reason. Although it's my opinion, I can say that it's not a good enough reason with absolute certainty, because something that, for us optimizers at least, effectively REMOVES champions, runes, masteries and items from our play in the new game mode would need to be necessary on a -dramatic- scale. Unless there's something that came up in testing that you guys haven't told us, there is absolutely -nothing- that rationalizes something this big.

tl;dr Sustain penalties have removed champions, items, runes and masteries from optimizing players "viable" pool of options, effectively penalizing the game. Known possible reasons are not good enough to rationalize this.
I hear ya on penalties making stats feel bad to use. Theyve basically said that sustain is more powerful on this map and by that i think theyre implying that its not going to feel worse. In other words, even though its 20% less they feel its still good because its inherently better on dominion. Only time will tell though.


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Wicked Demiurge

Senior Member

08-26-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by srsizzy View Post
Vladimir's only use as a champion is healing himself? I'm so sick of comments like this. Do you realize a heal doesn't make someone's combat ability stronger, just how long they're in combat? If you take away Vlad's heal and put him against someone else without a heal, I think Vlad is still gonna do well, considering he has a 4-second burst spell,
Burst? His transfuse's damage is exceedingly mediocre. It's not bad considering it doesn't work off mana, but it is the opposite of burst.

Quote:
an AoE,
A bad AOE. Self-damaging, point blank range only, very mid range damage with no CC.

Quote:
the most powerful escape in the game,
It got nerfed. Most of the flash type abilities are better now. I'd trade pool for Valkyrie any day of the week.

Quote:
and a really good ult for team fights..
And one of the worst 1v1 mage ults in the game (Brand's is worse in a true 1v1, but if someone stands next to their promoted minion, it is much stronger again)

Vlad has been nerfed out of being a strong champ. He's not an auto loss or anything, but he's very weak and this debuff will hurt him way more than it will hurt other mages. Brand is going to become even better compared to Vlad and Morg, for example.


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CrusRuss

Senior Member

08-27-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glaedren View Post
There is a tl;dr at the end if you are too **** lazy to read.

There is no problem having the same sustain in Dominion as we have in SR OTHER than possibly lengthening games due to the fact that sustain will make it easier to harass leading to more neutral point durations.

By reducing these effects you are making certain champions, runes, masteries, and ITEMS worse by deflating their effects by 20%.

No one is going to take Nasus (no minion farm for Q AND his lifesteal, both passive and ultimate, are bunk? Thanks for screwing my favorite champion for the new game mode), no one is going to take Vladimir, no one (smart) is going to take Mordekaiser (no sustain = eventually your own spells are going to be killing you), they may not be screwed but Warwick and Morgana's passives are worthless. Like stated earlier champions who rely on lifesteal effects (bought or otherwise) are screwed (off the top of my head: Yi, Tryndamere, Irelia, Sivir, Sion). HP regen runes are worthless (just when they were starting to become popular), regen masteries are now useless. No one is going to buy things like Force of Nature and Spirit Visage anymore, not when you could buy something else that doesn't have its effect for its gold cost gimped by 20%.

All in all, this should not make it into Dominion.

Okay so now that I've gotten the "QQ" argument out of my system I can honestly say I'm exaggerating quite a bit, but not enough that this global effect should still go into the final version of Dominion. The regen penalty should absolutely NOT be in Dominion, for the following reasons.

Most of those champions aren't really "screwed" (due to being hit by both minion farm AND regen I'm inclined to say Nasus might be, but I am biased as I said before, him being my favorite champion); however, no one who wants to be at full capacity for their team will ever bring those champions. You will bring a champion whose strengths are maximized by the Crystal Scar buff and who is not affected by the regen nerf. Same with the runes and items. If they are always going to be 20% worse for the rune slot/gold cost compared to something else you can get full power out of, then you won't use it.

I've played a lot of RPGs in my time and one thing I've learned about optimization is that you don't ever use something that has the same class/stat/item/gold budget as every other option, but has a penalty for some arbitrary reason. Old D&D had a lot of things like that, options with penalties for no other reason than "flavor". This regen penalty feels the exact same. I understand that there -is- a reason for it, however it is not a good enough reason. Although it's my opinion, I can say that it's not a good enough reason with absolute certainty, because something that, for us optimizers at least, effectively REMOVES champions, runes, masteries and items from our play in the new game mode would need to be necessary on a -dramatic- scale. Unless there's something that came up in testing that you guys haven't told us, there is absolutely -nothing- that rationalizes something this big.

tl;dr Sustain penalties have removed champions, items, runes and masteries from optimizing players "viable" pool of options, effectively penalizing the game. Known possible reasons are not good enough to rationalize this.
Its just that you dont understand their rationalisation

Basically Riot have "figured out" that sustain in general is 20% OP than what it should be on Dominion. Higher sustain = more ability to push, capture or hold. Without this nerf it would be 20% more beneficial to play high sustain builds/champs because they dont need to go back to base often + they can push/capture/hold better.

So to "level" the playing field and give non-sustain champs/builds viability they are nerfing sustain by 20% overall.

tl;dr they are nerfing sustain by 20% because that brings it in line with non-sustain champs. Basically sustain is 20% OP right now.

PS: Champs that rely on farming to maximise skills (nasus, viegar and sion) will not be played simply because farming is not viable mainly due to time.


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Shini Laser

Senior Member

08-27-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrusRuss View Post
Its just that you dont understand their rationalisation

Basically Riot have "figured out" that sustain in general is 20% OP than what it should be on Dominion. Higher sustain = more ability to push, capture or hold. Without this nerf it would be 20% more beneficial to play high sustain builds/champs because they dont need to go back to base often + they can push/capture/hold better.

So to "level" the playing field and give non-sustain champs/builds viability they are nerfing sustain by 20% overall.

tl;dr they are nerfing sustain by 20% because that brings it in line with non-sustain champs. Basically sustain is 20% OP right now.

PS: Champs that rely on farming to maximise skills (nasus, viegar and sion) will not be played simply because farming is not viable mainly due to time.
First time posting on forums.

CrusRuss is correct (sans the fact truly it would mean sustain is 25% OP, since 80% of 125% is 100%). Also, there are health runes lots of places. While it might not be as much in the long run as compared to traditional sustain, long term sustain is not as essential since we aren't talking about it being 5v5 every fight. Might be 2v2, 2v3, 3v3, rarely more..

You also had to remember that everyone is getting a, what, isn't it 5 or 10% aura debuff to MR (Or 5-10%+ magic pen, whatever) and a 10% armor pen buff? While they won't increase your sustain drastically, with a 4 1/2 second recall, the fact the map is supposed to be about half the size of SR, and the fact fights aren't the epic 5 v 5s they are in SR all the time, sustain does not need to be as high as SR. If you think Vlad, Trynd, Yi, or whoever will be a PoS because of the healing debuff, I think you are grossly overstating the problem. If 20% turns out to be too high, 15% will be probably just right.


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Doctor Tam

Senior Member

08-27-2011

Shields OP


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Shini Laser

Senior Member

08-27-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor Tam View Post
Shields OP
Hm . . . That is a good observation. Shields are completely unaffected, unless Riot goes ">.> <.< *Quick hotfix*"