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Elementz 5v5 Tier List (Draft Mode)

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KnightRider

Senior Member

08-23-2010

Quote:
Dunkelzahn:

poppy for example is one of the best (if not THE best) anti-carries in the game, but she doesn't bring much else other than "farm for 20 minutes, hit R on ashe and vaporize her with impunity"


As someone who mains Ashe, I respectfully request you do not bring this up. It causes me nightmares! *shudders*


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Wilczak

Senior Member

08-23-2010

Quote:
efrainy:
Whats so good about kayle?


Great support (heal+ims, slow, ulti) with AWESOME damage (nashor + guinso, and you are killing machine)


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Polaritie

Recruiter

08-23-2010

Quote:
Kama Toki:
Seeing as the placement of many of the top tier champions will be jostled next patch (Shaco/ Heim, Ez)

I'm not too keen on seeing Morgana and Amumu rise to the top of your list, considering the next wave of complaints and crying will be directly aimed at them.

So i guess i have a few questions that could possibly quell my own fears of the eventual changes to come, and assure myself that all champions are correctly placed on the list.



1). The AOE metagame experienced a very short stint recently, in which Morgana/Amumu quickly climbed the ranks. However it has quickly shifted into a Tank Meta, where champions with sustainable and constant damage along with survivability reign supreme.

Considering Both Morgana and Amumu both rely heavily on Aoe aspects to Assist a team, and tank champions are a hard counter to Burst Aoe teams. Do you think They will both drop in tier back to their original placements until the Aoe Meta returns?


2). One thing confused me, You pointed to recent buffs for Morgana as a reason to raise her tier. However a few weeks after those buffs went through it became the general consensus that they were indeed background nerfs to her damage as a whole.

Do you feel that the cleanse change alone was substantial enough to not only counteract the countless ratio reductions and hidden mechanics changes to her shield, but to also raise her Tier? Keep in mind she lost a huge portion of damage output for it.


Both Amumu and Morgana are naturally tanky, and both can built as actual tanks. Morgana's ult remains strong, black shield still saves lives and Q>W still hurts. Frankly, making Q do all its damage at once was good for her, in my opinion, since the DoT was integrated into the root, so Treads reduced the damage even more than just the MR. And I don't recall any ratio nerfs, unless you mean the Shackles nerf they reverted back to 1:1 on both hits.

Amumu doesn't care how much HP the other team has. Despair scales with HP, its like a built-in bloodrazor AoE.


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Krackor

Senior Member

08-23-2010

Quote:
Cpspindel:
Now, I'm kind of wondering what sort of role Gragas would (should?) play in a draftgame?


He's a good counterpick to both aoe teams and poking teams. Cask disrupts the aoe combo just like Janna's ult does (though her heal makes her a better counterpick for this purpose). Cask can also be used in the same manner as Blitz's grab, singling out a squishy from a poking line, while simultaneously knocking away the squishy's support friends.


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Letkhar

Senior Member

08-23-2010

Quote:
Dunkelzahn:
rupture is rather unreliable against a good team

annie provides excellent AoE CC with high damage and with a rod of ages she becomes *relatively* durable



vorpal spikes is decent as a pushing ability, but if you want a great creep-killing ability, i'd take sivir any day

feast is pretty god-tier, i agree

his passive...eh. you say "certain champions", but those certain champions are probably ones that wouldn't be able to harass you when you go in for last hits to proc your passive



sion's a more reliable version of cho'gath, imo. sure, his stun isn't CC, but it also can't be avoided by good positioning/walking

he's not *terrible*, he's just hard to place on a team because he's literally got nothing to bring to the table that other champions couldn't do. even the bottom of tier 4, those champions have something they can do that's pretty unique (blitz's grab, fiddle's crowstorm, corki's aoe armor reduction/physical damage output, malphite's ult which is nearly tied with amumu's for best initiator)

that's just the way i'm interpreting it of course, and this list is designed for draft mode high-level play, and even then, i'd rather have an amazing cho'gath than someone who goes "well hey, elementz says ezreal is the best hero better go play him herpaderp!" and then proceed to build malady because "mystic shot applies malady that makes it good"

My problem with this is that you just named 3 champions that, together, can do everything Cho'gath can do. None of those champions can do everything he does on their own. Annie isn't nearly as durable as Cho'gath. AP Cho'gath is hardly a squishy. Sivir really isn't comparable role-wise in any way. Again, the only one that even comes close to Cho'gath's kind of utility is Sion, but his CC is single-target and I personally think his shield is just as unreliable as Rupture. What kind of moron doesn't just break the shield or run away? The only time he can hit with it is when his target can't move away (sounds familiar...) and his target's team isn't there to break the shield.

Also, you can't dodge Rupture if you're rooted or stunned. A good Cho'gath will frequently hit with his Q in teamfights, and he doesn't need to hit with it to kill you in a lane. He can just force you to either be hit with it or be Feasted. And as you said, Feast is amazing.

I see him as a Sion with more utility in full-on teamfights, but less usefulness in small skirmishes where a reliable stun is infinitely better than silencing/slowing half their team for 4 seconds.

Is Rupture the only problem people have with Cho'gath? Because it seems that he brings enough to his team no other champion has in one package to at least be in tier 3. I mean, I can't remember the last time I saw Anivia land her stun and she's in tier 3...


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Letkhar

Senior Member

08-23-2010

Quote:
Wilczak:
Annie, Anivia, Veigar, Ryze, Sion, Heime, Fiddle, Kassadin, karthus, morgana... I forgot about someone?

Ryze, Sion, and Karthus don't have mass silence, stun, or any mass CC other than a mass slow (Which any caster can achieve with Rylai's) so I'm going to knock them out of the comparison.

Annie, Veigar, Fiddlesticks, Heimerdinger, and Kassadin are far more squishy than Cho'gath. And they all really don't share roles with him (A tanky support mage-As you said, like Sion) I wouldn't compare them to him.

So you're left with Anivia (Who I only left on because of her egg) and Morgana. I suppose Morgana could share roles with Cho'gath if she was built right, though to say she has a nuke is a little bit of an exaggeration. Dark Binding hardly deals as much damage as Feast; it really just sets you up for more damage. And Anivia's "mass CC" is about as unreliable as Rupture. And as far as I know that's her only AoE nuke. Unless you're counting her ult, which is hardly a nuke.

Again, I'm not saying he's amazing. I'm just saying he brings enough unique utility to the team to at least be worthy of being mentioned in the tiers.


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Wilczak

Senior Member

08-23-2010

AP cho IS squishy. If you think that having lot of health makes you tough - you are wrong. It's almost impossible to hit someone with rupture, his other spells has short range. And who let squishy mage without ANY escape mechanism auto attack their carry (with vorpal spikes). Kassadin is squishy melee mage. But he has escape mechanism. Cho don't have any escape mechanism. He can feast someone, heal and slooowly walk away, when he is focused (ofcourse if feast isn't on cooldown). Cho can be good only if you are playing vs team with lot of channeled skills (nunu, kat, pantheon, fiddle) because he can interrupt them all. Of course if they are stupid enough to use everything at the same time.

And I quote this again, because it is so ****ing awesome

Quote:
EpicHippo:

Now I understand some say "Well then just play him caster". Inc second wall of text.

Annie - 2 AoE nukes, nuke, shield, reliable stun
Anivia - Nukes, 2 AoE nukes, stun, wall
Morgana - Nuke, AoE Stun nuke, Shield, magic resist reduction
Veigar - 2 Nukes, AoE nuke, AoE stun
Kassadin - Teleport, AoE nuke, Nuke silence
Karthus - AoE nuke, Nuke, AoE dmg, slow
Ryze - 2 Nuke, Snare
Fiddlesticks - AoE nuke silence, AoE nuke, drain, fear
Cho'gath - AoE silence, AoE knockup, Nuke

To be fair, if you were AP Cho'gath, you better be playing like AP Sion, AP Gragas, as an offtank having SOME survivability. Still, compared to others he falls short thats all. You may enjoy him. You may do well with him. All it is is that if you wanted more utility, you should be picking a different champ. Just because your champ is low, doesn't always mean they're terrible, all it means is theres always a better option then them.


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Krackor

Senior Member

08-23-2010

Quote:
Letkhar:
I mean, I can't remember the last time I saw Anivia land her stun and she's in tier 3...


So it sounds like you're playing with terrible players, which would explain why Cho'gath is so good for you.


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Darge

Member

08-23-2010

Quote:
Darge:
@Elementz
Which ones of these can do 1v2:
Ezreal
Anivia
Annie
Garen
Amumu
Rammus
I don't mean rocking or pushing on that 1v2 lane, just surviving. Is it possible with every champion to do 1v2?
Which one of these, if they were in one team, should go mid: ezreal, anivia, annie?

Also:
What do you think about such udyr:
AS Marks
Dodge seals (Stacks with his passive)
M.res/18 glyphs
AS Quints or flat HP (Tell me which one to take)
Items: Madred's bloodrazor, mercury treads, then 4 tank items depending on the enemy,
Ghost+Smite
1/21/8, getting improved smite, improved ghost, 5% more exp
Jungling, golem first, after killing the whole jungle, ganking (Probably 4 level then)
R>W>R>E>R>W>R>W>R>W>W>Q>Q>Q>Q>Q>E>E (
Basicalyy, you leave the movement speed/stun stance at 3rd level., use R to fight mainly)
Does it sound good? Could you please give me some names of good udyrs, so I can look at their items, masteries, runes, maybe talk to them (lol, stalking! ), watch their livestreams. Also thank your friend (If he is one ) guardsmanbob, he is very helpful despite being pro, he listens to newbies and gives them advices ;d


And thank you a lot Elementz, you do a good job helping people ;p

Ah, your TT tier list:
First page:http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=97188

Please Elementz, at least say if those AS runes and madreds are good on udyrs ;d


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Dongsy

Senior Member

08-23-2010

Quote:
Letkhar:
My problem with this is that you just named 3 champions that, together, can do everything Cho'gath can do. None of those champions can do everything he does on their own. Annie isn't nearly as durable as Cho'gath. AP Cho'gath is hardly a squishy. Sivir really isn't comparable role-wise in any way. Again, the only one that even comes close to Cho'gath's kind of utility is Sion, but his CC is single-target and I personally think his shield is just as unreliable as Rupture. What kind of moron doesn't just break the shield or run away? The only time he can hit with it is when his target can't move away (sounds familiar...) and his target's team isn't there to break the shield.

Also, you can't dodge Rupture if you're rooted or stunned. A good Cho'gath will frequently hit with his Q in teamfights, and he doesn't need to hit with it to kill you in a lane. He can just force you to either be hit with it or be Feasted. And as you said, Feast is amazing.

I see him as a Sion with more utility in full-on teamfights, but less usefulness in small skirmishes where a reliable stun is infinitely better than silencing/slowing half their team for 4 seconds.

Is Rupture the only problem people have with Cho'gath? Because it seems that he brings enough to his team no other champion has in one package to at least be in tier 3. I mean, I can't remember the last time I saw Anivia land her stun and she's in tier 3...


Allow me to reiterate what everyone has said.
1) Chogaths stun is unreliable, you have to rely on others to land it, comparing it to sion is pointless, sion can assure his shield will hit someone via his own stun and using the bush, if chogath q's from the bush you still have that huge circle of impending rupture.
2) As someone said before me he has no escape mechanism, NONE. Sion atleast can stun and bring up the shield for defense.
3)Again , You could of picked janna/annie and had a reliable aoe stun,while you would not have to rely on your team having someone to set you up.
4) Aoe silence is the only thing chogath has to bring to a teamfight, unless your going to go crazy and flash in and try to devour their carry and proceed to get focused and instagibbed beyond belief. He has alot of hp, and time and time again its proven that alot of hp does not mean anything compared to ac/mr outside of ignite.


Chogath excels against bad people.

If you're playing against a team with channel stack you should of picked udyr anyway.

For what its worth I think chogath should atleast be above teemo.