Looking for CONSTRUCTIVE feedback on jungle Xin Guide!

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Zauper

Member

08-03-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seimitsu View Post
Thank you for being polite in your feedback it looks like I will have to give Ghostblade a shot as first item after Wriggle's. I do like the idea of Stark's as well and I'm not sure how I forgot to include it under my items section. The one thing I'm a little skeptical of is SotD. I've toyed around with it before, but the practicality seemed to be limited to champions like Jax, Nasus, and Sivir. I'll try it out though and see what happens. Thanks again.
Personally I avoid SOTD unless the enemy team has a Jax, just to use the active to get around his dodge.

Starks is a good item, but I wouldn't take it unless you have at least one other player on your team that can get good use out of it.


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Seimitsu

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Senior Member

08-03-2011

The items I'm suggesting up top for one are suggested and are also listed as my core, not as my only. Aside from that I have already stated (if you look at the other posts in this thread) that I'm going to be playing around with some other items in the core. The actual items section in the guide lays out plenty more options in terms of defense, but it's important to remember that Xin isn't the tank. If you're getting Wriggles to Mercs to something defensive, you're sitting at no real damage. As far as the Atma's/Warmog's thing goes, I agree that Atma's is most effective when coupled with Warmog's, but Atma's situationally can stand alone. I appreciate the feedback, but the way you're presenting could be a little less "you're stupid, I'm right about everything".


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Ebonclaw

Senior Member

08-03-2011

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Originally Posted by Zauper View Post
...but in the jungle, you're starting WL, which is 1600...

No.

Do NOT get Wriggle's, you do not need it to be effective OR efficient in the jungle as Xin.


Grabbing Cleaver ASAP isn't the problem, it's shoving a Wriggle's into your build, and then expecting to have -real- items in a timely manner.

I will usually upgrade to an Emblem before really getting damage, but just a Vamp (450g) and Xin's passive will keep you up no problem, and Xin has plenty of damage to smash through the jungle.

Why buy Wriggle's when that's practically a BF sword?
Just don't do it.


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Seimitsu

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08-03-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebonclaw View Post
Why buy Wriggle's when that's practically a BF sword? Just don't do it.
O.o I don't really think that's the issue. Regardless of its necessity Madred's Razors speed up a jungle exponentially (as well as dragon). I think if you're that morally opposed to Wriggle's you should still pick up the razor's, but instead work towards Bloodrazor.


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Zauper

Member

08-03-2011

Seimitsu: I suggest that if you want them to be read that way, you revise your guide to present them in that light. Yes, your guide is clearly suggestions -- but if people are looking at it for guidance, then they probably aren't thinking about why your guide is flawed. For example, here's your core build tl'dr:

Quote:
TL;DR - Cloth Armor + 5 HP potions > boots 1 > BF sword > Black Cleaver > boots 2 > Zeal > Phantom Dancer.
No mention of defensive items other than the boots (and cloth/cloth upgrades) in your text for the core items, either. That's just an example. I don't have an issue with what you're saying, you should just make it more clear to folks that they should be thinking about survivability as well, a lot of people looking at guides aren't going to be.

Ebonclaw:
First of all, if you're starting Vamp, the cost is 1150 for wriggles vs 1650 for BF. If you build emblem, the cost is 800 for wriggles vs 1650 for BF, compared to your build.

BF gives 45 damage. Wriggles gives 23 damage, 30 armor, (18% lifesteal, 1 higher than emblem), free ward (you can expect ~7 uses of it, that's 210 gold saved that we're not considering in the above calculation), and....Wriggles is jungle control. Ability to solo dragon at 6/7, faster clear of your own jungle (more time to gank or counter jungle).

That 850 extra gold (WL vs emblem + BF)? That's boots 1 + longsword and some left over, or components for merc treads, and some left over. If you go boots/longsword, the BF build only has 12 more damage, and the WL build has boots, more survivability, better jungle control, and can solo dragon, for only slightly less damage.

Edit to respond to above:
That's fair, but the cost to upgrade from madreds to wriggles is 150g if you already have vamp. 150g for an extra 5% proc chance, 6% life steal, 7 armor, and 8 damage. Plus free wards. Not taking that upgrade if you're building the madreds early seems silly to me.


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AnarkhiaQC

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Senior Member

08-03-2011

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Originally Posted by Zauper View Post
Personally I avoid SOTD unless the enemy team has a Jax, just to use the active to get around his dodge.

Starks is a good item, but I wouldn't take it unless you have at least one other player on your team that can get good use out of it.

Well Sotd gives 60%Ias, 30 armor pen(!!!!), no dodge buff, 25 magic damage per attack for only 2000...Sotd ghostblade+ all tanky u get enough damage to destroy any1 even tank until very end game and the longer the game the more wall u are


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Zauper

Member

08-03-2011

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Originally Posted by Anarkhia View Post
Well Sotd gives 60%Ias, 30 armor pen(!!!!), no dodge buff, 25 magic damage per attack for only 2000...Sotd ghostblade+ all tanky u get enough damage to destroy any1 even tank until very end game and the longer the game the more wall u are
Yes, SOTD is good, but personally I prefer wits ends and starks for AS options in most cases.

So, I run 26-28 ArP with runes/masteries. Add starks (or ghostblade), and that alone is enough to reduce a carry without armor to 0. I'm far more concerned with optimizing my damage vs carries and living long enough to kill them than I am with how much damage I'm dealing to tanks.


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Seimitsu

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Senior Member

08-03-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zauper View Post
Seimitsu: I suggest that if you want them to be read that way, you revise your guide to present them in that light. Yes, your guide is clearly suggestions -- but if people are looking at it for guidance, then they probably aren't thinking about why your guide is flawed. For example, here's your core build tl'dr:

No mention of defensive items other than the boots (and cloth/cloth upgrades) in your text for the core items, either. That's just an example. I don't have an issue with what you're saying, you should just make it more clear to folks that they should be thinking about survivability as well, a lot of people looking at guides aren't going to be.
I agree that the way it's presented may be a little misleading. If you look shortly below that (under the situational items) there is a note that says that you should be building survivability in order to fill the tanky dps role. Perhaps I should move that note up to directly below the tl;dr and include an example defensive item in the core. The reason that I don't have any defensive in the core currently is because every match is different. Against a team with 4 auto-attack champions a Banshee's Veil isn't nearly as important as something like thornmail,atma's, or frozen heart. I'll look into making this more visible though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zauper View Post
I'm far more concerned with optimizing my damage vs carries and living long enough to kill them than I am with how much damage I'm dealing to tanks.
I also agree with this. I'm not saying SotD is a bad item, as it certainly does have its uses. There are just certain scenarios where it performs well, and I think its use should be confined to those. As a tanky dps your main role is to pick off carries. If you're building to focus down tanks, you should reconsider who you're targeting in fights.


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AnarkhiaQC

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Senior Member

08-03-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seimitsu View Post
I agree that the way it's presented may be a little misleading. If you look shortly below that (under the situational items) there is a note that says that you should be building survivability in order to fill the tanky dps role. Perhaps I should move that note up to directly below the tl;dr and include an example defensive item in the core. The reason that I don't have any defensive in the core currently is because every match is different. Against a team with 4 auto-attack champions a Banshee's Veil isn't nearly as important as something like thornmail,atma's, or frozen heart. I'll look into making this more visible though.



I also agree with this. I'm not saying SotD is a bad item, as it certainly does have its uses. There are just certain scenarios where it performs well, and I think its use should be confined to those. As a tanky dps your main role is to pick off carries. If you're building to focus down tanks, you should reconsider who you're targeting in fights.

yeah but Sotd allow u to burst em faster. (gold efficient).. just try it youll see.. you need 80-100 Armor pen to bring em to 0 by lvl 18


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Seimitsu

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Senior Member

08-03-2011

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Originally Posted by Anarkhia View Post
yeah but Sotd allow u to burst em faster. (gold efficient).. just try it youll see.. you need 80-100 Armor pen to bring em to 0 by lvl 18
Like I said, I'm by no means dismissing SotD as a viable item. My biggest issue is that there are other items that need to come first (whether that be Ghostblade or Banshee's Veil). The issue is finding a good place to put it in a build when you aren't facing a champion that it is necessary against. I will add it to my situational items area and I'm going to attempt it in the game I'm starting now.


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