Cooldown based champions

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Xandal

Senior Member

04-30-2010

Here's what I have to say, I'll make it short and sweet.

Cooldown based champions are unbalanced. I am not saying overpowered, just unbalanced.

(I'd also consider the Ninja's to be in this category as Energy regenerates so quickly that they are practically cooldown based, especially Kennen)

Why?
They do not have to waste an item slot on items such as Chalice. Which is practically necessary on a few mana based champions. Cooldown reduction allows them to use spells constantly without worry. Laning and early game is a breeze, never having to recall for mana.

I have no fix other than make them use something. Health or Mana are both viable options. I'm just putting my opinion out there with a reason.


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CapnForc

Senior Member

04-30-2010

Chalice is a bad idea on pretty much anyone except maybe Ezreal.

Late game, mana isn't a real big problem for many people.



Also, too much crd on energy champions can screw up their natural flow. Their ability costs are balanced with their cooldowns and energy regeneration rate. If you lower the cooldown rate too much, you're using more energy than you normally would be.


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Voidgolem

Senior Member

04-30-2010

Chalice does need a few buffs, tbh.

Would rather have an item viable all game as opposed to something I'll be expected to sell when mana ceases to be a concern.


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Xandal

Senior Member

04-30-2010

It's not late game that I'm worried about, I rarely have mana problems late game. It's the early game issues where some champions NEED a Meki or a Chalice or a Crystal. Other champions do NOT need that and can focus on survivability/damage output. Also, early game determines the outcome 99% of the time.

Also, thread's not about chalice.


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Viro Melchior

Senior Member

04-30-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnForc View Post
Chalice is a bad idea on pretty much anyone except maybe Ezreal.

Late game, mana isn't a real big problem for many people.



Also, too much crd on energy champions can screw up their natural flow. Their ability costs are balanced with their cooldowns and energy regeneration rate. If you lower the cooldown rate too much, you're using more energy than you normally would be.

Mana IS an issue for most champs. Some (like Ryze) tend to get around that by making good use of items that raise maximum mana and/or mana regen, AND are not low end items (Archangel Staff).
Generally only casters fit into that category, as there aren't many items that give mana regen alongside non-caster stats.

Which means that any tank or carry has to invest in mana regen somewhere. I main singed. I *have* to get a mana regen item early, and run 9 mana regen runes as well. Only after about level 15 is my rune + champ regen high enough to ditch the philosopher stone, and even then I can run out - which usually happens if we're pushing their base inhibitors/turrets. This investment in mana is non-optional unless I want to run around everywhere being an auto-attack tank.

Garen, Katarina, Mordekaiser, Mundo, Kennan, and Shen ignore these limitations. Mordekaiser and Mundo have a semblance of a limit (hp draw), but in general those limits only make an impact early game, and especially for Mordekaiser due to his shield - barely.
Kennan and Shen are only capable of running out of energy in a single intense fight. Generally speaking though, if Kennan runs out of energy, he's gotten multiple kills. Shen (as a tank) generally contributes to a fight for a longer period of time, making energy management a bit more of an issue.
Garen and Katarina, however, have NO limiter placed on them. Why do you think Katarina has been so difficult to get balanced? She has a low(er) cooldown ultimate that dishes out SERIOUS damage, and a passive that drops her cooldowns anytime she gets a kill or assist.
And now Garen has been added along the same vein. His ultimate is BREAKING (killing any champion that is at or below 1/3 hp (at peak it can do about 40% of a champions hp, scaling "down" to 38% of a 4000 health champ's health). And neither he nor Kat ever have to say "maybe I shouldn't use my ability".

Of these 6 champions, the one I like the most is Shen. Why? Because he doesn't have a harassment tool, and he has to at least manage his energy in a teamfight.
Katarina, Mundo, Mordekaiser, and Kennan are all FAR too good at laning for being mana-independent. And Garen and Katarina need to have to manage SOMETHING besides cooldowns. That or actually make their cooldowns large. What is with every skill they get going down in cd AND up in damage when they rank the up? Exponential damage increase without any cost.


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Yuralz

Senior Member

04-30-2010

Yeah I think champions without a resource system are pretty lame. There has to be some trade-off if you're not using mana. Using health instead of mana is fine but when you use nothing or "energy" which may as well be nothing, where exactly is the downside?

Give champions who currently have no resource system engery and nerf energy regen rate by like 50%.


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ShardOfDarkness

Senior Member

04-30-2010

Energy should have a 'no regen for X sec after using an ability, then restored to max over x sec' probably 5-7 sec for the first and 2-5 sec for the second (energy is meant to be a limiter for a single fight, so this would probably fit the bill)


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Talamare

Senior Member

04-30-2010

absolutely none of the champions that use health actually care that their using health


using health = the roughly the same as no cost


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Voidgolem

Senior Member

04-30-2010

Mundo: Regenerates the 40-odd health used per spell in a second and a half.

Mordekaiser: Shield means his health is basically meaningless unless being focused on. Regen/Lifesteal easily covers miniscule HP costs.

Mana Champs: Gimpy during laning phase. Dead/too much mana to care during teamfights (Ezreal being the inverse - if you're OoM during laning, you're a 'tard.)

Cooldown Champs/Energy Champs: Generically underpowered except certain circumstances/niche spells.


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CyberMonkey

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Senior Member

04-30-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voidgolem View Post
Mundo: Regenerates the 40-odd health used per spell in a second and a half.

Mordekaiser: Shield means his health is basically meaningless unless being focused on. Regen/Lifesteal easily covers miniscule HP costs.

Mana Champs: Gimpy during laning phase. Dead/too much mana to care during teamfights (Ezreal being the inverse - if you're OoM during laning, you're a 'tard.)

Cooldown Champs/Energy Champs: Generically underpowered except certain circumstances/niche spells.
Katarina is still UP. Her damage isn't enough to dent the hp of any smart player. Her ult is easy to counter. Must fed on nub Veigars to be useful. Otherwise, totally useless in a teamfight.

Shen is fairly balanced, but survivability-wise, he is almost impossible to kill.

Garen is OP. Too much base HP, especially since he has an Armor/MR passive increase. Passive is extremely powerful. Ult is craziest single move in the game.

Kennen: the idea of kennen is OP. A ranged nuker who doesn't use mana? Give him some HP regen and you can solo lane against up to three champs. GG


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