[Guide] My Crit is Over 9000: Ashe

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Shirokuma

The Council

09-16-2009

I'm not too fond of Atma's either; Phantom Dancer gives you a much better array of stats for the price; dodge for countering physical dps, movespeed for countering slows, crit chance to stack onto your already ridiculous crit damage and rate, and attack speed for, well, everything.

Like I already said in my post, the 6th item should always be situational. If they have 3 low armor casters that are tearing your team apart, that Last Whisper won't be as effective as a simple Phantom Dancer. Heck, even Bloodthirster's +100 damage might top it. However, against an armor-stacking Taric, Rammus, etc., Last Whisper is definately the way to go.


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Shirokuma

The Council

09-16-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanir View Post
It is a rule in DotA. Since you need to lane contrul. Some DotA player will just call you "noob" for not last hitting.
It's a LoL rule too. You're a carry; you need items, items require gold, gold requires last hitting things consistently. If you don't last hit, you're hampering both yourself and your team.


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IHaveCrayons

Recruiter

09-16-2009

Hey guys... I've been using Philosopher's Stone -> Boots of Swiftness -> Infinity Edge -> Black Cleaver (then it depends on the game). I been reading a lot of the posts, and the builds vary widely. Any recommendations or perspectives on the build I am currently using?

Also, one more question. Ashe's ultimate says that it will stun "depending on the distance traveled". Well I've hit people as far as from inside my base all the way to the first turret of the middle lane of their base and the stun time doesn't seem to be any different than usual medium distance shots.


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Shirokuma

The Council

09-17-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by IHaveCrayons View Post
Hey guys... I've been using Philosopher's Stone -> Boots of Swiftness -> Infinity Edge -> Black Cleaver (then it depends on the game). I been reading a lot of the posts, and the builds vary widely. Any recommendations or perspectives on the build I am currently using?

Also, one more question. Ashe's ultimate says that it will stun "depending on the distance traveled". Well I've hit people as far as from inside my base all the way to the first turret of the middle lane of their base and the stun time doesn't seem to be any different than usual medium distance shots.
Okay, I'll try to explain to you as best I can as to why Philospher's Stone is a bad pick on Ashe. We'll break this down into an opportunity cost scenario so you can better understand what I mean. Sorry in advance for how long this post is going to be.

Cost
In total, the Philosopher's Stone takes 1115 gold to make. If you plan on keeping this til the end of the game (a likely possibility; games usually end by the time you're finishing your 5th item) you have to disregard its resell value. So let's look at how long it takes to pay for itself.

5 gold / 10 s = .5 gold per second
At a cost of 1115 gold / .5 gold per second gives us a total of 2230 seconds, or 37 minutes and 10 seconds. Ouch; at a cost of 1115 gold, this means that it isn't until you're about ready to get a new item that it actually has become profitable.

So, realizing that it's not a very cost effective item (in terms of paying itself off from the gold per 5 seconds), we'll move on to the next issue it has. And, simply put, that would be the fact that it gives something Ashe can get elsewhere for free...

Mana Regeneration
"But Shiro," you say, "I need the mana regeneration to harrass with Volley!"
That's right, you need some, but you don't need 12 mp5 for it. Ashe has one spell that she uses early game that requires mana, and that's Volley. At a whopping cost of 60 mana per cast, Volley is among the most useful tools Ashe has to keep her opponent(s) at range. Let's look at how long it takes for you to get back the mana for Volley solely based on the mana regeneration from the Philosopher's Stone.

12 mana / 5 s = 2.4 mana per second
60 mana / 2.4 mana per second gives us a total of 25 seconds. Wow, that's quite a reasonable statistic! But here's where it gets iffy...

Ashe has two spells with a cooldown; Volley and Enchanted Crystal Arrow. Our options for Glyphs for pure Physical DPS champions are Focus (-Cooldown), Celerity (-Cooldown/Level), and Clarity (mp5). By the end of the game, Volley has two purposes; stacking an initial slow on a target at range, and ripping off 1-5 peoples' Banshee's Veils simultaneously with a 60 mana 4 second cooldown AoE so that your casters don't waste their spells. For both of these situations, you really only need one cast of Volley to do the trick; you do far more DPS auto-attacking than trying to chain Volleys between attacks (Ashe is a crit cannon, and since Volley can't crit, even hitting all 5 targets at once isn't really worth breaking your auto-attack for). As for Enchanted Crystal Arrow, its cooldown is short enough that we can guarantee it for every team fight, but long enough that stacking cooldown reduction won't let us use it more than once per fight (even if we could, it wouldn't be worth it.) This leaves us one option for Glyphs; Clarity.

Clarity gives us .1 mp5 / level. Socketing all 9 slots with Clarity Glyphs gives us .9 mp5 / level. Realistically, Volley doesn't become useful until Ashe is at least level 3. By this point, Clarity gives us 2.7 mp5. At this point, we're only getting a full Volley back from it about every 2 minutes; not very impressive, but you shouldn't truly be harassing with Volley until at least level 5 (Volley level 3). Now we're up to 4.5 mp5, or .9 mana per second. This means almost every minute, we have a full Volley back; now we're getting warmer. By level 7, we now have 6.3 mp5, or 1.26 mana per second. This is over half the mana regeneration of a Philosopher's stone, all for free.

You may be thinking that it would be awesome to stack both the Glyphs and Philosopher's Stone for insane mana regeneration for Volley, but it's not. Back to my level 7 example, by stacking both, we now have 3.66 mana per second. This equates to one Volley every 15 seconds, and you have no reason to be spamming it that much.

tl;dr - you get enough mana regeneration from Clarity Glyphs that the mana regeneration from Philosopher's Stone is a moot point.

Now that we've covered two parts of the Philosopher's Stone, time to critique the third.

Health Regeneration
Most likely, players who pick up a Philosopher's Stone start the game with a Regrowth Pendant. This provides 17.25 hp5 at the cost of your entire starting pool of 475 gold. First, let's break it down into health per second.

17.25 health / 5 seconds = 3.45 health per second. Let's assume a rookie to the AoS (I refuse to use the "marketing" term for this genre) style of gameplay picks this item up and heads towards his lane. Not realizing that his opponents are hiding in the bush, he walks right past them and they jump out and hit him a few times. He's now lost 200 hp. In order to gain all of this back, he must now wait

200 health / 3.45 health per second, or roughly 58 seconds in order to fully heal himself.

That's a rather long time to sit back and wait. However, let's look at the opportunity cost scenario that he picked up a pair of boots and a health potion. He's now spent 385 of his starting gold (a saving of 90 gold) and walks to his lane. Under the same situation of losing 200 health from a surprise attack, he uses his health potion. 20 seconds later, he's back at full health, with more gold and more movement speed than his Regrowth Pendant counterpart.

Now, the argument is that Player 2 has now used up his health regeneration, while Player 1 still has it in case he takes more damage.

To counter this, let's see how many health potions it would take in order for the opportunity cost of a Regrowth Pendant to become profitable.

Regrowth Pendant - 475 gold, 17.25 hp5.
Health Potion - 35 gold, 200 health.

For the same price, we could buy 13 (and a half) health potions. This would heal you for 2,600 health.

2,600 health / 3.45 health per second (health regeneration of a Regrowth Pendant) gives us the number of seconds we would have to wait to regenerate this absurd amount of health; a total of about 12 minutes and 30 seconds. Mind you, this isn't 12 minutes and 30 seconds of game time, but 12 minutes and 30 seconds of being damaged below full health.

Now, 9/10 people will tell you they'd never go through 13 health potions in a game, and yet of those 9 people, a handful will tell you that they commonly buy a Regrowth Pendant, which offers both a lower health regeneration per second than the potions as well as a far longer delay until when they become profitable. Why? Simple - until you've crunched the numbers (or read them from someone who has) it's not clear exactly what you're giving up for what you get.

Looking at the fact that the mana regeneration from Philosopher's Stone is useless, you've effectively payed 640 gold for a 60% increase in your health regeneration item. For that much gold, you could buy 31 Health Potions. Don't even get me started on the absurd number crunching here...

tl;dr - don't use Regrowth Pendants; use Health Potions.

In conclusion, there's just nothing about the Philosopher's Stone that makes it worth taking over going for your movement speed and damage items first, along with a few health potions. If even one person reads this whole thing and switches away from using them for Ashe, I have no issue with the time I wasted writing this all out.


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Austere

Junior Member

09-17-2009

There is definitely a very nice discussion going on here, and thanks for the number crunching shirokuma. One of the things I've been thinking about in my Ashe games lately is whether an ias item would be better than anything else for dmg after the first cleaver/edge? From what I understand in order to maximize dps you need to take even advantage of raw damage, attack speed, crit chance, crit damage, and sometimes armor penetration.

I majorly lost a shoot-out with a Tristana yesterday (even having better items) and I feel like most of it was due to her freak attack speed versus mine. Lately I've been running boots 3 to edge and then at that point if I'm finding survival a problem going with banshees and if I need more dmg going with either whisper or phantom dancer.

After getting your first damage item do you think (in terms of raw dps) that ias or another dmg item is more effective? (also if someone had a sec - why go edge over cleaver or vice versa)


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Hmmer94

Member

09-17-2009

Not bad guide, but lacks survival skills, even if ashe is a glasscannon...


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Qusteka

Junior Member

09-17-2009

FOR ****S SAKE, i just posted an insane wall-of-text about the upper topics, going along with really time
intense maths -.-, so i'm going to break it down to the most basic things i wanted to let you know.

@Shiro

Quote:
In conclusion, there's just nothing about the Philosopher's Stone that makes it worth taking over going for your movement speed and damage items first, along with a few health potions. If even one person reads this whole thing and switches away from using them for Ashe, I have no issue with the time I wasted writing this all out.
Thanks for your wall-of-text, read through it and am happy that you did the maths I didn't realize I
should do.

@Austere
I explained very well, why you should choose raw damage over IAS. But because LoL is an very fast-
paced game you just need some ATS to really profit from increased damage, otherwise you won't be
able to hit your enemy enough to make your damage worth it. Just try to get a good balance of both
for Ashe. That's why i think Berserkers Greaves fit Ashe perfectly, they give you the "slight" 25% boost
which just PWNS to have as a start. As long as your planning to build frost shot instantly, (what you
definitely should) you just don't need boots of swiftness, rather go for harder or faster hits e.g. Greaves.

I did some maths, now breaking it down:
Ashe with 2 damage and 5 dam crits with 1 attack per sec and 30-40% crit =~12dp4s
Ashe with 1 damage and 2.5 dam crits with 1.5 attacks per sec and 20-30% crit =~9 dp4s

you see the difference? Even if you had 75% IAS instead of 50% and 75% of the first ashes damage instead of 50%
you still had about 15% less total damage. That's cuz of runes of crit dam or infinity if you don't have either of those, you
probably still will do 5-10% more overall damage going for raw damage rather than high ATS.

@Hmmer94
Quote:
Not bad guide, but lacks survival skills, even if ashe is a glasscannon...
Uhm lol, LACK OF SURVIVABILITY? I loled so hard when reading this. Mallet + Veil is a uber amount of
survivability. I usually choose not to buy the mallet, because i think i don't need the 800 bonus hp. If you
play as secure as I think you should with Ashe and only expose yourself if the enemy alrdy got a focus
target having wasted quite some skills, you can just stand there and burst the **** out of them before they even hit you. More survivability only would be needed if you permanently exposed yourself or
didn't pay enough attention to evade ganks (which implies you don't use wards nor hear misses). Sure
you can't evade every gank, but when all of a sudden 3 heroes disappear on the minimap, you should at least peek if they seem to reappear within 10-15 secs if they don't it probably is already too late no matter if you got the 800 bonus or not.

Here is a short stat priority list i think might help some players (only for ashe):
-->Hp/Damage multiplier (armor reduction or inc crit dam) both stats are extremely important.
-->Damage
-->IAS
-->MS(you should at least have 350, better 370)
-->Dodge
-->mana/mana regen
-->Armor
-->hp5
-->AbP,SpP or other mage stats(useless)


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Shirokuma

The Council

09-17-2009

Ashe's attack speed isn't overly impressive, that's why I tend to work either Berserker's Greaves, Phantom Dancer, or both into my build for her. Granted, I don't get Phantom Dancer until my 6th item (only thing I do after that is upgrade Phage to Mallet) but it's a great choice if you feel you're lacking the attack speed to make things happen, and the insane Dodge on it gives you a lot of survivability vs. physical DPS heroes like Tristana. In the early game, Volley is more important than your auto-attack (which you should be using mainly to last hit) and as such attack speed is less important; that's why I usually wait til after my first BF Sword to upgrade my boots.


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Qusteka

Junior Member

09-17-2009

Quote:
In the early game, Volley is more important than your auto-attack (which you should be using mainly to last hit) and as such attack speed is less important; that's why I usually wait til after my first BF Sword to upgrade my boots.
Didn't think about that fact yet. But I absolutely agree with you. Thanks for mentioning.


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Shirokuma

The Council

09-17-2009

I do want to mention; Regrowth Pendent isn't a terrible item for your first item on some heroes, just not for Ashe. Those "some heroes" I'm talking about are any hero you plan on getting a Warmog's with. You're effectively getting hp5 early game just for buying a component of something you plan on having late game. Long story short, Regrowth Pendant -> Philosopher's Stone = Bad, Regrowth Pendent -> Warmog's = Good.