Armor Pen vs Crit Dmg: A Quantitative Analysis

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Carados

Senior Member

06-09-2010

The problem being that you're buying a Black Cleaver and a Last Whisper.


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MrBootyBandit

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Recruiter

06-10-2010

Why are we copying the original creator of this thread?

http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board...ad.php?t=70173

EnderA is the original as far as I know.


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Mangopeer

Junior Member

07-23-2010

this analysis is based on 200% crit dmg. as you get more crit chance almost every physical attacker will buy an infinity edge and thereby increasing crit chance but also increasing crit dmg by 50%. so the bonus is even less. and also there are champs that do physical damage with skills (warwick, pantheon, ashe, garen, etc). for all those champs the crit dmg doesnt apply to abilities but armor pen does.

also, if your team is going for first blood (which almost every team does) its nice to have a 30 armor pen bonus (plus 6 mastery bonus in offensive, tier 3). so thats 36 arp, you will even have a 100% arp on most tanks at lvl 1. that hugely increases your damage output on first blood because the armor of the target is fully penetrated. also, at first blood most champs will have 2% crit chance from mastery, and max 8% from equips. thats 10% chance to do 233% crit dmg (thereby increasing damage output from 100% to 116% IF critted).

compared to the 25% extra phys dmg from arp there is no doubt that armor pen give much much more average dmg (and is also so much more relyable) than crit dmg.

so if you want to go for first blood, go for armor pen. it will give you a great money bonus if you get the first blood bonus.

also in mid game, you will have near 100% armor penetration against low armor targets, which you will mostly go for as a physical damager. so even in mid game arp is much better than crit dmg.

so in my opinion, get arp marks and quintessess, buy infinity edge (great in combination with phantom dancer) and pawn like hell against low armor targets like casters.

P.S. the mathmatical stuff shows that it makes nearly no difference if you have arp or crit dmg against medium geared tanks. so go for armor penetration, always!


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GlitchedOut

Senior Member

07-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carados View Post
Characters have base armor. Most characters start with less armor then you get armor pen from runes and hit about 70 at 18. This is ignoring Aegis of the Legion.

If you can show me how to get 70 numeric armor penetration, go ahead.
1) 30 Armor Pen from runes. (yes I know it is a few decimals short. Go with me on this one.)

2) 20 Armor Pen from Ghost Blade.

3) 15 Armor Pen from Brutilizer. Yes. GB and Brut stack.

4) 60 Armor Pen from Black Cleaver. (At 5 stacks, yes.. but showing it anyways.)


Grand total = 125 Armor Penetration.


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Violentpower

Junior Member

07-30-2010

Guys.. the point with crit dmg runes is to get a ****ing big BURST, not hitting 20 times and doing more dmg, but hitting maybe 5 times instead then hes dead. Meaning youre gonna crit like ****. Tryndamere is the only one that makes sense to build this to, tho.


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Zargonzo

Senior Member

07-30-2010

Ok, we all know about the *correct* math from EnderA.

The math leans towards ArP of course.

And another great argument besides that is you don't have to CRIT to make use of Crit dmg.

!!!HOWEVER!!! someone must have MORE armor than you are penetrating to make use of ArP.

There any *correct* math that takes this into account?


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Zargonzo

Senior Member

07-30-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlitchedOut View Post
1) 30 Armor Pen from runes. (yes I know it is a few decimals short. Go with me on this one.)

2) 20 Armor Pen from Ghost Blade.

3) 15 Armor Pen from Brutilizer. Yes. GB and Brut stack.

4) 60 Armor Pen from Black Cleaver. (At 5 stacks, yes.. but showing it anyways.)


Grand total = 125 Armor Penetration.
Don't forget 40% additional from LW.


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Matuk

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Senior Member

07-30-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeagerEvil View Post
Same as above actually, he uses a 2.33 crit damage multiplier, where (I assume) it should be 2 * 1.33 or 2.66 as the total damage is modified by 33% not just added to the crit multiplier percentage. I have searched and found nothing absolute from riot, but it is how I have interpreted the runes, It is extremely hard to verify this math in game. If I find out anything new I will update it.

In fact this seems to be the crux of the issue, how crit damage runes are applied, if they are applied my way, then my math stands and they are useful at a certain crit percentage, however for the sake of argument, if it is applied as additional percentage ontop of the 200% then they are ****ing useless.

100 Internets to anyone who can link a OFFICIAL answer to how crit dmg runes are applied.
...why wouldn't it just be additively added to the 200%?

I see no logical reason that it would be done the other way. The rune says "+2.23% critical damage"
Extreme emphasis on the plus sign. This implies that you add that onto the 200%. If it said "2.23% increase in critical damage" then I could assume it applied multiplicatively like you say. But it doesn't make SENSE to do it that way, and makes things overly complicated.

Yeah, it does make them useless, but that's because you'd be gambling on crits to begin with. Armor Pen is better because it affects all of your physical damage, normal and crits alike. You need an extremely high crit chance (say, 3 Phantom Dancers), to truly benefit from the extra crit damage, but even that would be reduced by armor.


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Joeweee

Junior Member

01-15-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carados View Post
Characters have base armor. Most characters start with less armor then you get armor pen from runes and hit about 70 at 18. This is ignoring Aegis of the Legion.

If you can show me how to get 70 numeric armor penetration, go ahead.

Don't forget, Stark's Fervor has a 20 armor REDUCTION aura, meaning after all that armor pen, you get -20 more armor, giving you a grand total of negative armor on champs with 120 armor or less.


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Tsiphon

Senior Member

04-04-2011

I'm sure reductions take place before %, making the overall effect less than what you're assuming. As in, flat's applied first, % after, like if you had abyssal and void.