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Some Ryze comments & math

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WestminsterNinja

Member

07-27-2011

Quote:
Gunflame:
Whoever doesn't do a QWQEQRQ rotation needs to get their brain checked.

Wouldn't you want QEQWQRQ for the reduction in MR upfront?


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Redenbacher

Senior Member

07-27-2011

Quote:
WestminsterNinja:
Wouldn't you want QEQWQRQ for the reduction in MR upfront?


Depends on the situation. W first will allow you to chain a second snare in quick succession. In most skirmish situations, I'd rather have two snares. In a teamfight situation, I get that MR debuff out there ASAP to help the team.


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Epsilon2012

Senior Member

07-27-2011

I just had a good Ryze game.....

-Archangels
-Sorc Boots
-Banshee's
-Frozen Heart
-Guardian Angel...


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Deathfairy

Senior Member

07-27-2011

Quote:
Gunflame:
Whoever doesn't do a QWQEQRQ rotation needs to get their brain checked.

QWEQ is only good for harassing until you get your frozen hearth, then you need QWQEQ


Not quite true. I just did a spreadsheet break down. difference between

#1)QEWQRQQEWQQ
vs
#2)QWQEQRQWQEQ

Both end up with the same casted spells cds on E W left over are similar as well. #1 takes 5.5 sec #2 takes 5.7 sec to execute.

Pros of #1
a)Qx3 WE combo gets of faster by 1 sec. Which could in theory mean a difference between target getting his ult/spell of or not.
b) it fits 1 extra spell into R duration
Cons
a) due to lag/being slow it is possible to loose time on #1 combo for example:

0 sec - Q
.2 sec - W
.4 sec - E
.6 sec - Q ( by this point you lost .5 sec on Q cd since it should have went of at .1 with perfect execution)

This is hard to measure without extensive testing and is dependent on each machine/person.

My guess however is that #2 is better on average. Even tho i don't think by much.


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MorikTheMad

Senior Member

07-27-2011

I also want to point out that you shouldn't wait on R for the second rotation UNLESS there isn't a good opportunity during your first rotation.

If you run up to a ball of enemies who just got shen-taunted or something, and they are all clumped, you better hit your R. Throw a Q, hit R before it lands, and continue your combo from there.

Does saving R for the 2nd rotation make your combo go off faster? You bet--it reduces Q, W, & E if you put it in the 2nd rotation, just Q in the first. BUT, I would only save it in the following situations:
- No clump during first rotation.
- You are very confident that they will still be clumped during the 2nd rotation


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KnyghtFall

Member

07-27-2011

Quote:
angel69SR:
I see your point, Ryze is meant to be built tanky, but his role on the team is a carry, first and foremost. RoA and AS are better suited for the benefit he provideds to the team as a whole; they help him kill stuff


Not actually labeled a carry.


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MorikTheMad

Senior Member

07-27-2011

Quote:
KnyghtFall:
Not actually labeled a carry.


Neither is annie...


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NickPham

Senior Member

07-27-2011

Quote:
Redenbacher:
The point is that RoA slows down the point at which he can carry. Once he gets Glacial Shroud and maxes Q, he becomes a spell spamming machine gun and melts everything squishy.

RoA isn't adding nearly as much damage as a Glacial Shroud is.


Right here is the essence.

Sorc, Tear, Cata, Glacial, Negatron is a pretty hefty core.

Glacial is probably the most important component of Ryze's damage, and once you get it, your damage and utility spikes noticably. It doesn't give you HP or MR though, leaving you vulnerable. Basically, it's not that RoA is a bad item on Ryze, it's that he can't comfortably fit it into his build.

I find the build path most difficult for people to deal with on a fed Ryze would be that core, followed by a blue elixir to top off your CDR and Turning the Negatron to a fast Abyssal rather than Banshees. Spell flux's debuff is a great reason Ryze is so good at being tanky DPS. When you manage to rush Sorc + Abyssal, a squishy carry who bought even a banshees will still be penetrated down to less than 10 MR.

Again it's not that RoA is a terrible item on Ryze, it's that at too many points in the game it is a sub optimal choice. My optimal end build is Sorc, Archangels, Banshees, Frozen Heart, Abyssal, and Will of the Ancients. When you look at this as a whole, would you want to replace any of those with an RoA? 150 in each resist, with around 50 flat penetrations not counting spell flux, spell vamp as EHP, and of course a hefty bit of AP from Archangels. It feels like perfection to me.

Sorc, Tear, Cata, Glacial, Negatron is the core that you want to be what Ryze can be. The question is if you are owning, do you turn the Negatron into Abyssal or Catalyst into RoA. My thoughts is that I'm going to want a Banshees eventually, and it's already pretty far into the game.

And that my friends is why I am so vocal about not buying RoA.


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NickPham

Senior Member

07-27-2011

Alright thanks for your maths. I took an hour out of my boring summer to give more practical math on Ryze. Your results are skewed by the fact that you don't calculate the multiple Qs a Ryze player can expect to shoot off.

Core comparisons:
-Enemy has 30 MR
-You are level 9, 690 base mana
-Q: 140 damage, W:95 damage + 1.25 sec snare, E:50 damage + 12 MR reduction
-Masteries 0/9/21
-8.5 magic pen from reds (other runes vary too much)
-No stacks from tear or RoA for convenience
-1 hit of spell flux

Build1: Sorc, Tear, RoA (5130 gold):

+450 Health
+875 Mana
+60 Ability Power
+7 Mana Regen/5 sec.
+20 Spell Penetration
1565 total mana, 60 AP, 28.5 Pen

-Optimal Combo: QWEQR...Q
Q damage: 140+12+125 = 277
W damage: 95+36+78 = 209
E damage: 50+21 = 71
Total Combo: .985(277+209+71)+277+(277+6) = 1110 Damage


Build2: Sorc, Tear, Glacial, Catalyst (4945 gold)

+290 Health
+1100 Mana
+7 Mana Regen/5 sec.
+45 Armor
+20 Spell Penetration
1790 total mana, 0 AP, 28.5 Pen

-Optimal Combo: QWQEQRQ
Q damage: 140+143.2 = 283
W damage: 95+89.5 = 184
E damage: 50
Total Combo: .985(283+184+283+50)+283+(283+6) = 1369 Damage

Analysis:
But wait you say, RoA has no stacks and once you have glacial you will catch up anyways! I counter that you will have glacial, but seriously are you going to run around with 30 MR until you have Glacial+RoA? 200 damage is pretty substantial at that point in the game, but on top of that, B2 has the possibility of a second snare. At the end of that combo, there is only about another second to W.

B1 is only stronger during the interval in which you buy Glacial on B1, and Negatron on B2. Then we step into extentions...

Extension comparisons:
-Enemy has 55 MR (Merc Treads as average at this point)
-You are level 14, 965 base mana
-Q: 140 damage, W:200 damage + 2 sec snare, E:40 damage + 15 MR reduction
-Masteries 0/9/21
-8.5 magic pen from reds (other runes vary too much)
-700 mana from Tear stacks
-1 hit of spell flux

Build1 extension: Sorc, Tear, RoA (stacked), Glacial, Negatron (7395 gold)

+630 Health
+2200 Mana
+80 Ability Power
+7 Mana Regen/5 sec.
+45 Armor
+48 Magic Resistance
+20 Spell Penetration
3165 total mana, 50 AP, 28.5 Pen

-Optimal Combo: QWQEQRQ
Q damage: 140+253+16 = 409
W damage: 200+158+48 = 406
E damage: 70+28 = 98
Total Combo: .791(409+406+409+98)+.897(409+409+12) = 1790 Damage

Build2 extension: Sorc, Tear, Glacial, Catalyst, Abyssal (7595 gold)

+290 Health
+1800 Mana
+70 Ability Power
+7 Mana Regen/5 sec.
+45 Armor
+57 Magic Resistance
+40 Spell Penetration
2765 total mana, 70 AP, 48.5 Pen

-Optimal Combo: QWQEQRQ
Q damage: 140+221+14 = 375
W damage: 200+138+42 = 380
E damage: 70+25 = 95
Total Combo: .939(375+380+375+95)+375+(375+12) = 1912

Analysis: Alrighty. So as you notice, B1 finally has both the CDR Ryze NEEDS, and his first magic resist item. Meanwhile B2 went ahead and bought an aura item that will benefit the whole team, has had a stronger and safer overall early game, and comes out 100 damage ahead anyways.

For the cost of some health this isn't so bad considering if you need more survivability, you can still finish that Banshees, or rush a Hextech.
Meanwhile if you choose RoA you have to either drop Abyssal from your build and be left with under 100 MR, or drop Hextech from your build, and lose that valuable leech.

TL : DR - Read my post above this one. It explains it entirely. This post just reinforces my logic with numbers.


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MorikTheMad

Senior Member

07-27-2011

Yes, but what if you factor in being able to get blue buff? Wouldn't the RoA build then be ahead more in the damage departument early game? If I can't get the blue buff then I agree--I almost always go tear -> sorc -> glacial. If I can get the blue buff & I'm not being kicked around too easy (i.e., I have time to save up for an RoA without dying), I'll go for the RoA after tear & T1 boots.

I tend to play with flat & scaling MR runes... so around 47 MR by 15 minutes or so.
Now, negatron puts that up at 95 MR. Thats pretty darn good MR. 48% more effective health vs magic damage than before the negatron... but the rod gives 450 health, which is going to be affected by your current MR & armor to give reasonable effective health vs both physical & magical dmg.

If the enemy team is mostly AD in terms of their dps, with just magic damage from support/tanks, and 1 mage who isn't doing fantastically, I feel that I can easily hold out and get negatron after RoA, sorc, glacial. And then when you do get it, all that extra health just makes you more tanky.

I would tend to replace the WoTA with RoA. More damage, and I like the higher health pool. Yes, you get more sustained survivability with WoTA, but in games where I'm ahead, I don't find I need it--the RoA gives plenty of survivability on its own, and you can heal back up on minion waves in between fights.

If on the other hand my team is behind, I think WoTA is better. I also prefer it if my team has other strong AP damagers.