Some Ryze comments & math

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MorikTheMad

Senior Member

07-26-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drkirby View Post
How my friend builds him is Tear of Goddess, Boots, Rod of Ages, Frozen Heart, Banshee's Vail, 2nd Rod of Ages, and if the game is still going, he will upgrade his Tear of Goddess to an Archangel's. The reason he has for upgrading Archangel's last is that due to how fast Ryze casts spells, the "two times every six seconds" works out to actually being faster then "Once every three seconds"
Yeah, as I said, upgrading once your tear is charged is generally best.

As to the 2nd RoA: you get more damage with a 2nd AA or a Rabadons, and probably even more from a void staff or abyssal scepter, unless no one is building MR.

RoA: adds 725 mana, and 80 + 3% of 725 in AP, for 101.25.
Q: 78.25
W: 97.0
E: 35.4375

AA adds 400 mana (you don't get an extra 1000 from a 2nd one), 45 AP, and another 3% of max mana as AP. Lets be generous and assume you had 5k mana prior to choosing between RoA, AA, and Rabadon. So 5.4k mana now, 3% of that is 162, for 207 AP and 400 mana.
Q: 73.4
W: 144.20001
E: 72.45

What about Rabadon? Well, if you had 5k mana, you have 150 AP from AA's passive, 45 AP from AA, 80 from RoA, and 10.8 from the offensive mastery tier 1 = 285.8 AP prior to rabadon. So Rabadon adds 140 base (putting you at 425.8) , and then adds 30%, or an additional 127.74. So Rabadon adds a total of 140 + 127.74 = 267.74
Q: 53.548
W: 160.644
E: 93.70899
NOTE: @Redenbacher: if you don't have a first RoA, the Rabadons adds 140 + 103.74, for
Q: 48.75
W: 146.244
E: 85.309

Abyssal & Void staff are more complicated in terms of damage added, and I won't go into much detail... they each add 70 AP, so a little over 1/4th of the damage you would get from rabadon:
Q: 14.0
W: 42.0
E: 24.5

The actual damage benefit depends on enemy MR. If you consider an enemy with 80 MR (late game squishies), you already penetrate 24 from your E, 20 from boots, 9 from runes (assuming full MPen marks), so 53 of it, leaving 27, of which you penetrate another 15%, so they have ~23 MR left, and so take 78.7% damage from you. If you got an abyssal, they would take 94.3% damage from you instead. Thats 16% more total damage you are dealing... if your Q is doing ~600, your W ~800, and your E ~250 (random figures, probably about right), then on top of the damage from AP, you are getting an additional (on top of the 14/42/24.5) 90 or so on Q, 120 or so on W, and 37 or so on E.

If an enemy has 200 MR and you get a void staff, now you penetrate 53 (boots, masteries, runes), leaving 147, and then 49% of that (see OP for explanation of why 49% and not 55%), leaving them with around 75 MR. So instead of receiving 44.5% damage from you (pre void staff you penetrate them to 147, then 15% more leaves them at 124.95, 100/(100 + 124.95) = ~44.5%), they receive 57% (penetrate to 147, then 49% more for 74.97, 100/(100+74.97) = ~57%), for a 13.5% damage increase (to your total damage).

I think its pretty much always better damage to go for an MPen or MR reduction item last if you want more damage. If you need the extra HP, the 2nd RoA does have that


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MorikTheMad

Senior Member

07-26-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redenbacher View Post
The point is that RoA slows down the point at which he can carry. Once he gets Glacial Shroud and maxes Q, he becomes a spell spamming machine gun and melts everything squishy.

RoA isn't adding nearly as much damage as a Glacial Shroud is.

My build is:

Tear
Sorc Shoes
Glacial Shroud -> Frozen Heart
Banshee's Veil

At this point you're sitting on about 3k mana for a very modest amount of gold. RoA increases that gold value by too much, in my opinion, and I'd rather have the spell shield.

Now, I finish AA staff. Bam. 200 AP. Then Abyssal Scepter, and top it off with Rabadon's Deathcap.

3k+ Mana, 500 AP, 50 Mpen, and plenty of HP and mitigation. There's no room for RoA when I find the other items are much, much better. I also don't want to get RoA at 30+ minutes in to the game when I can finish other items that will provide a greater return on investment.
Prior to having an AA, a freshly built (i.e., no bonuses yet from passive building) RoA gives:
Q: 54.0
W: 62.25
E: 21.0

A glacial shroud gives:
Q: 34.0
W: 21.25
E: 0.0

But also has the CDR. (And both RoA & glacial add to defenses, but lets just talk damage right now)

So yes, you will get more damage with glacial first, or about the same maybe (not going to do the math for how much dmg the CDR adds cause Ryze's passive complicates it, but lets say 15% CDR gives at least 20% more dmg, which should push your Q up above a fresh RoA, your W will be about the same, and your E will be weaker (since you level it last, 21 flat dmg is better than +20% dmg). You get the glacial faster though, and then can get your sorc boots faster (or get them first), so yes, this path provides more IMMEDIATE damage, but I think rushing RoA gives more damage by around 25 minutes than you get with the glacial first.

Though I want to point out that when I rush RoA, a big factor is whether I can get the blue buff. If I can, it makes it much more attractive: the CDR from glacial doesn't matter nearly as much if you can get the blue buff.

Doing well build (few or no deaths, getting several kills + assists, generally at least 5 by 16 minutes or so, helps this build out a lot):
Tear -> tier 1 boots -> RoA -> sorc boots -> glacial -> frozen heart/bveil (depending on what defenses I need most) -> bveil/frozen heart (whatever I didn't just build) -> upgrade to AA -> void staff/abyssal

By rushing RoA, it starts building up early, and then when you do get the glacial, everyone REALLY starts melting. More than just starting with glacial. Note that it is very good if you start getting blue buff once you hit 6. Soloing the golem shouldn't be an issue. If you can't get blue buff (someone else on your team needs it more, enemy jungler keeping it stolen/locked down), then I tend to do the other build.

Other build:
Tear -> sorc boots -> glacial -> frozen heart/bveil (depending on what defenses I need most) -> bveil/frozen heart (whatever I didn't just build) -> will of ancients/abyssal -> upgrade to AA -> some 6th item (if no abyssal yet, maybe that, maybe void staff, maybe a tanky item like FoN or Thornmail)


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RoCCocheLLo

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Member

07-26-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redenbacher View Post
The point is that RoA slows down the point at which he can carry. Once he gets Glacial Shroud and maxes Q, he becomes a spell spamming machine gun and melts everything squishy.

RoA isn't adding nearly as much damage as a Glacial Shroud is.

My build is:

Tear
Sorc Shoes
Glacial Shroud -> Frozen Heart
Banshee's Veil

At this point you're sitting on about 3k mana for a very modest amount of gold. RoA increases that gold value by too much, in my opinion, and I'd rather have the spell shield.

Now, I finish AA staff. Bam. 200 AP. Then Abyssal Scepter, and top it off with Rabadon's Deathcap.

3k+ Mana, 500 AP, 50 Mpen, and plenty of HP and mitigation. There's no room for RoA when I find the other items are much, much better. I also don't want to get RoA at 30+ minutes in to the game when I can finish other items that will provide a greater return on investment.
I would not recommend this build vs a Veigar, he will shoot u dead with his ult and nothing more. I'd rather stack mana with: Tears ; Sorc Shoes ; ROA ; Glacial Sh (then to Frozen Heart) ; Void Staff ; AA. With this build i shoot dead teemos, shacos, twitchs, about all the squishy champions that exist doing R W E Q W Q.


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MorikTheMad

Senior Member

07-26-2011

Speaking of rotations, why would you R W E Q W Q? W has 8.4 sec cooldown with 40% CDR... W E Q W means you are waiting about 6.4 seconds between the Q & the 2nd W...

Ult up max burst combo: Q R E Q W Q
Ult not up max burst combo: Q E Q W Q

Harass combo 1 (esp. early game before much CDR): Q W [auto-attack if you have time] Q
Harass combo 2 (once you have your E): Q W [Q if they won't get away] E Q. Skip the 2nd Q if they are fast enough to escape before the last E Q will go off. Auto attack in between casts when able.

Almost always you want to open with Q. It has such a short CD, you want your W/E/R casts to drop a second off it so you can use it again almost immediately.


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MorikTheMad

Senior Member

07-27-2011

Oh one more thing: You should almost never pop R first even if they are clumped--you can throw Q or E, wait for it to cast, and then hit R. So long as the projectile hasn't landed yet, it will get the AoE effect. So, you get to get an 'extra' cast in during the R.

Also verified that E's MR reduction doesn't stack with itself, regardless of number of bounces.


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Deathfairy

Senior Member

07-27-2011

I found that will of the ancient is just invaluable defensive item. Outside of being very useful team item, 25% spell vamp is pretty large. It say you melt a 2000 hp squishy. That is 500 hp back. Add in aoe from R and it goes muc higher, i found that in a longer team fight where i dont die it can leach back good 1k+ hp, making it a superb defensive item.

So my item build is
tear
sorc boots
glacial
banshies
revolver

That is core then depending on other team i start upgrading stuff, i honestly don't see where to fit roa in here. I guess i can build roa instead of bashies and banshies later i might try that.


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Hefty Sak

Senior Member

07-27-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redenbacher View Post
The point is that RoA slows down the point at which he can carry. Once he gets Glacial Shroud and maxes Q, he becomes a spell spamming machine gun and melts everything squishy.

RoA isn't adding nearly as much damage as a Glacial Shroud is.

My build is:

Tear
Sorc Shoes
Glacial Shroud -> Frozen Heart
Banshee's Veil

At this point you're sitting on about 3k mana for a very modest amount of gold. RoA increases that gold value by too much, in my opinion, and I'd rather have the spell shield.

Now, I finish AA staff. Bam. 200 AP. Then Abyssal Scepter, and top it off with Rabadon's Deathcap.

3k+ Mana, 500 AP, 50 Mpen, and plenty of HP and mitigation. There's no room for RoA when I find the other items are much, much better. I also don't want to get RoA at 30+ minutes in to the game when I can finish other items that will provide a greater return on investment.
QFT.

The passive benefits from FH, BV, or Abyssal Sceptre > RoA's early game benefits.

Start Tear and MPen boots (MR boots aren't terrible either depending on make of opponent)

build chain armor and negatron (suddenly you are tanky and people can't combo you easy).

finish glacial shroud. finish catalyst.

upgrade shroud to FH. upgrade catalyst to BV. now people will have a really tough time with you.

late game, finish archangel's.

buy Abyssal or Rabadon's or Lich Bane or something with HP as team needs.

ryze doesn't need much to be very effective, so late game aura services are nice when you are fed. (AoTL)


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MorikTheMad

Senior Member

07-27-2011

Again, it depends on how you are doing.

If you are ahead, and finding that you are ganking and getting kills and assists just fine, you can:
- invest in your midgame by rushing RoA and letting it build up--you get a nice chunk of HP for midgame, a huge chunk of mana (almost 2x a banshee veil), and 80 AP on top of that. Fully charged by 28 minutes or so. By that time you will have finished your T2 boots (if you need the move speed/mpen you can always build these b4 rod), glacial shroud, and have at least a negatron cloak, if not most/all of your bveil. You end up with a lot more offense & defense when teamfights are all the rage.
- or, you can skip it and build more defenses, but less offense, and less HP, by going T2 boots, shroud, bveil.

Pros of rushing RoA:
- you have lots more HP in the midgame, without giving up defenses for very long (by mid or late mid-game, you will have your shroud/bveil, and soon your frozen heart if needed). Once you have these other items, the extra HP is worth a good bit, since you have very good armor and reasonable MR.
- more offense once built (~18 min if built b4 boots) than the other options (esp. if you build T2 boots right after rod, or right before) if you can get blue buff. Without blue buff, your offense will suffer a bit since the CDR from glacial is very nice. (Though your poke/harass will still be stronger with RoA)
- even though you don't get armor & MR as fast, the extra chunk of health is actually still quite effective. 45 armor from glacial gives you 45% more effective health... rod gives 450 health immediately, which is then increased by whatever your base armor & MR are. So you are actually about as well defended in terms of effective health
- its a more offensive ending build, with some reasonable suvivability, but not as much as other builds (see below)


Cons:
- if you cannot get blue buff, your ganks & full-on-battle damage will suffer until you get glacial
- RoA is more expensive--you can have a glacial complete much faster than an RoA, giving more immediate offense
- later bveil, which can be very detrimental vs a nuke/cc heavy team. (Though as I point out in pros, you get about as much effective health anyway, so it evens out with the MR, just not evened out with the spell block)
- less overall survivability once build is complete (see below)


Assuming your core is:
sorc boots, tear->AA, bveil, frozen heart

You have 2 slots left
A combo of RoA + Void staff or abyssal (depending on their MR), gives very good offense with reasonable survivability (all that extra HP)

A combo of will of ancients + void/abyssal gives a good bit less offense, but generally more long-term survivability. (Less able to withstand fast nukes, but if you don't get nuked down really fast, will end up healing much more than the life you would have gotten from RoA)


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Nephwrack

Senior Member

07-27-2011

Quote:
"tear of the goddess!? o_o--get some skill, and buy mana runes" or "rod of ages?! That sucks on Ryze--so much wasted stats!"
Anyone who says that can be safely ignored permanently. One could argue about, say, the exact value of merc+void vs abyssal+sorc shoes, but saying Tear or RoA is BAD on him... wow. OP, you have my condolences for having had to deal with baddies of that level.


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Gunflame

Senior Member

07-27-2011

Whoever doesn't do a QWQEQRQ rotation needs to get their brain checked.

QWEQ is only good for harassing until you get your frozen hearth, then you need QWQEQ

Anyways the most powerful item for ryze is Frozen Hearth only because CDR can double the amount of damage that ryze does over 5-10 seconds.

Because of the extremely high cost I only get RoA if I'm stomping early game. Late game there are usually much better choices:
- Void staff
- Guardian Angel
- Thornmail
- Force of Nature
- Warmoggs
- Rylai
- Will of the ancient

Usually once you get Banshe/Frozen/AAS you do enough damage, and it is better to go on the utility/survival front than adding more damage.

I had a game were I was forced to buy BOTH Thornmail AND force of nature... they REALLY hated me and we didn?t have a dedicated tank. I ended up tanking towers and such.


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