### Some Ryze comments & math

Senior Member

Ok, so in a lot of games recently, I've had people who really don't know what they are talking about complaining about how I build Ryze ("tear of the goddess!? o_o--get some skill, and buy mana runes" or "rod of ages?! That sucks on Ryze--so much wasted stats!". So, I thought I'd get on here and make a post so that newer players who are trying Ryze can see some reasonable discussion. (And no, I wasn't doing bad in those games either--in the first case I was 8/8/7 (the one *****ing was a 14/5/3 akali, the rest of the team was 1/8/2 or so), the second 8/3/4 (complainer a 9/9/3 yorick), at the time)

So, Ryze's damage scales with both his max mana & his AP. His AP scaling is pretty crappy. Does this mean AP is useless on him? No it does not. Some math:

His Q gets 8% of your max mana to its damage, and 20% of your AP to its damage. So, 2.5 mana = 1 AP in terms of damage added to Q.

His W gets 5% of your max mana, and 60% of your AP. So 12.5 mana = 1 AP for damage added to W.

His E gets no damage from mana, and 35% of your AP.

(And his R doesn't deal damage)

Rod of Ages? 725 mana, 80 AP, 630 health. So:
Damage added to Q: 725 * .08 + 80 * .2 = 74 damage
To W: 725 * .05 + 80 * .6 = 84.25
To E: 80 * .35 = 28

Compare that with, say Banshee Veil, which has 375 health & mana, 50 MR, and blocks a spell. Damage added though?
Q: 375 * .08 = 30
W: 375 * .05 = 18.75
E: none

That is a lot less damage.

What about tear of the goddess?
Once finished charging, gives 1350 mana, and some mana regen (which is nice earlier in the game, which is good, since you generally rush tear)
To Q: 1350 * .08 = 108
W: 1350 * .05 = 67.5
E: none

Thats pretty good too, and solves some mana issues.

I've seen some top-voted ryze guides mention that upgrading it to a archangel's staff is low priority, since the extra AP is not useful. Really? I agree its low priority, for two reasons:
1) It will add good damage, but the damage it adds gets better when you have higher max mana, which means waiting til you have most of your +mana items.
2) tear lets you charge 2 times per 6 seconds, the staff 1 per 3. Since Ryze spams spells, you will charge it faster by leaving it as a tear (cast 2 spells in a row: tear charges twice, staff once).

How much extra damage do you get for upgrading a fully charged tear into a staff? Well, by the time you have it fully charged, lets conservatively say you have 4k mana (including the extra 50 you get from upgrading, since tear gives 350 & staff 400). (Generally you will have around 4.3k-4.9k, depending on your rune choices)

So, the AP added is: 45 (base) + 120 (3% of 4k) = 165 AP
To Q: 165 * .2 = 33
To W: 165 * .6 = 99
To E: 165 * .35 = 57.75

I'd say thats actually a good bit of damage added. It only gets better if you have closer to 4.5k or 5k mana.

Yasuthrow

Senior Member

I totally agree. Tear of the Goddess and Rod of Ages are two items made for Ryze. Plus, Rod of Ages gives you health, and most of the time at the end of a game with Ryze on 3v3, I'll have 2.5k health + I'll be doing better than any other mage in the game. Also, about Archangel's staff. I find that it can be useful earlier, depending on the situation. But, y'know, to each his own! Anyways, I think you did a good job with this. It was nice because it secured what I thought about some items for Ryze, such as Banshee's Veil (Not a very good one!).

Azernak0

Senior Member

I generally go Tear, Boots 1, Rod of Ages, Boots 2, then Frozen Heart. After that, I will usually get a Negatron Cloak to help with Magic Damage or go for Archangel's for more damage. The extra health from Rod of Ages is so very nice and it gives Ryze everything he needs.

tumultuoustempus

Senior Member

You guys realize that Banshee's Veil does other things besides add mana, right?

The point of Ryze is that he is a tanky mage. ROA lets him be tanky, but not nearly as much as Banshee's Veil / Frozen Heart. It's not a bad item, but I wouldn't build it first.

My Ryze build:
Tear
Boots 2
Banshee's/Frozen Heart
Banshee's/Frozen Heart
ROA
AA Staff

Drkirby

Senior Member

How my friend builds him is Tear of Goddess, Boots, Rod of Ages, Frozen Heart, Banshee's Vail, 2nd Rod of Ages, and if the game is still going, he will upgrade his Tear of Goddess to an Archangel's. The reason he has for upgrading Archangel's last is that due to how fast Ryze casts spells, the "two times every six seconds" works out to actually being faster then "Once every three seconds"

Senior Member

Well, banshee's veil is actually pretty good. Many characters who don't get ANY damage from it buy it, for the spell block & the MR & the HP.

Ryze does get extra benefit from it, which is why many people consider it a core item on him. However, not that the damage bonus, while not negligible, isn't very large either. I'd skip it if the enemy team is very light on nukes/cc (which isn't very often though). Can replace with a will of the ancients, which will give a little less than half of the Q dmg, more W dmg, more E dmg, and also survivability with the added spell vamp. Or with a rylai's to add some CC & still get some HP, if your team doesn't have much CC. (By the time you build a rylai's in 5v5, it is generally team fights only, so if your team does have good CC, there are better items you can get).

I also want to note that void staff should really only be build if there are multiple enemies stacking 100+ MR.

Note that your E, at max level, gives 24 MR reduction (maybe per bounce? I've been meaning to test, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't stack with itself, from a brief click on the blue buff golem when I had my E at lvl 1, its resist stayed at -12, not -36 (3 bounces), your boots & runes should be giving another 29 MPen, and you have 15% MPen. 24 + 29 = 53 MPen, -15% = 45 MPen (on top of the 15% pen). So if they have 100 MR, you get them to 40. That is reasonable... add an abyssal scepter and you get them to 23 (20 MPen more, but only 85% effective, so 17 MPen).

With a void staff you penetrate 49% (its multiplicative with your 15%, not additive, so you penetrate 40%, and then 15% of the remaining. I.e., if they have 100 MR, you penetrate 40, leaving them with 60, then another 15% of the 60, for 51 MR remaining. So 49% total). Your E will give slightly over 12, your boots & runes slightly over 14.5, for 50% (of their total) + 26.5 penetration. This leaves someone with 100 MR at 23.5, a little higher than with an abyssal (and its only worse if they have less than 100 MR, but better as they have more MR)

angel69SR

Senior Member

Quote:
Originally Posted by tumultuoustempus
You guys realize that Banshee's Veil does other things besides add mana, right?

The point of Ryze is that he is a tanky mage. ROA lets him be tanky, but not nearly as much as Banshee's Veil / Frozen Heart. It's not a bad item, but I wouldn't build it first.
I see your point, Ryze is meant to be built tanky, but his role on the team is a carry, first and foremost. RoA and AS are better suited for the benefit he provideds to the team as a whole; they help him kill stuff

Senior Member

Well, if the enemy has bursty nukes, or good CC, yeah get the bveil (will be most games).
If the enemy has magic damage, but not really highly nukey or strong CC, can get an abyssal staff instead, and then can use your last slot for a will of the ancients. The extra spell vamp really helps survivability. You won't have as fantastic damage as you would with a rabadon or 2nd AA, but it should still be enough

If the enemy doesn't really have magic damage (maybe in some 3v3s?) I'd get a will of ancients & a void staff (or abyssal anyway, if they have low MR)

tumultuoustempus

Senior Member

Quote:
Originally Posted by angel69SR
I see your point, Ryze is meant to be built tanky, but his role on the team is a carry, first and foremost. RoA and AS are better suited for the benefit he provideds to the team as a whole; they help him kill stuff
I guess this is where we disagree. I would never take him as a primary carry in my team comp. He is more suited as a back-up carry, or tanky dps type. My opinion.

Redenbacher

Senior Member

The point is that RoA slows down the point at which he can carry. Once he gets Glacial Shroud and maxes Q, he becomes a spell spamming machine gun and melts everything squishy.

RoA isn't adding nearly as much damage as a Glacial Shroud is.

My build is:

Tear
Sorc Shoes
Glacial Shroud -> Frozen Heart
Banshee's Veil

At this point you're sitting on about 3k mana for a very modest amount of gold. RoA increases that gold value by too much, in my opinion, and I'd rather have the spell shield.

Now, I finish AA staff. Bam. 200 AP. Then Abyssal Scepter, and top it off with Rabadon's Deathcap.

3k+ Mana, 500 AP, 50 Mpen, and plenty of HP and mitigation. There's no room for RoA when I find the other items are much, much better. I also don't want to get RoA at 30+ minutes in to the game when I can finish other items that will provide a greater return on investment.

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