[GAMEPLAY] Minions Game Balance

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Refallen

The Council

09-06-2009

I've really noticed this problem too. Even at level 3 minions are doing laughable damage to a single hero. I really think that the main problem is the HP gain that heroes have per level. In this game heroes are gaining 3-4 times more HP than their DotA counterparts. The only way to fix this, imo, is to buff creep's attack at the start, and then implement scaling creeps (once every 10 minutes or so?).


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gutter

Senior Member

09-06-2009

I'm not sure exactly why minions need to be a huge threat. Minions have their uses. They are:

- Providing gold to those who manage to last hit them.
- Providing experience to all champions in the area.
- Blocking skillshots.
- Providing a buffer for certain attacks (like Ryze's ultimate).
- Helping take down towers more quickly.
- Providing cannon fodder for the towers' attacks.

Don't forget, they're "minions," not "dangerous obstacles." The champions aren't really supposed to worry about them. I mean most champions are at least twice their size! They're there to serve as the ammunition for the human-wave-tactics that both sides deploy.

And for what it's worth, in the early game I care heavily about minions that damage me. Get too cocky and you could be taking 60 damage per second while you're trying to take down that other champion which could very realistically make the difference.

So you're right, I don't really worry about them. But does that actually make the game worse or are you just used to DotA?

As for your concern that there are too many ranged minions, I agree. I think having mostly melee minions is more realistic and would lead to more interesting gameplay. Especially for melee classes, ranged minions can be a way bigger obstacle to progression than you'd think. Examples of this include ranged minions getting stuck right next to an enemy tower and the situation you provided where the ranged minions over right around the opposing team's ranged champion.


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roliax

Junior Member

09-07-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by gutter View Post
I'm not sure exactly why minions need to be a huge threat. Minions have their uses. They are:

- Providing gold to those who manage to last hit them.
- Providing experience to all champions in the area.
- Blocking skillshots.
- Providing a buffer for certain attacks (like Ryze's ultimate).
- Helping take down towers more quickly.
- Providing cannon fodder for the towers' attacks.

Don't forget, they're "minions," not "dangerous obstacles." The champions aren't really supposed to worry about them. I mean most champions are at least twice their size! They're there to serve as the ammunition for the human-wave-tactics that both sides deploy.

And for what it's worth, in the early game I care heavily about minions that damage me. Get too cocky and you could be taking 60 damage per second while you're trying to take down that other champion which could very realistically make the difference.

So you're right, I don't really worry about them. But does that actually make the game worse or are you just used to DotA?
.
Minions don't need to be a huge threat, but they need to be powerful enough to be a presence. It's like they don't even exits.

If you are dumb enough to tank an entire wave at level one then yeah minions hurt. Otherwise, at low levels it's far too easy to bypass minions for a kill. From levels 6 and up, people gank as if minions don't exist. You might as well make and arena game with gold/xp over time and have heroes just go at it


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gutter

Senior Member

09-07-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by roliax View Post
Minions don't need to be a huge threat, but they need to be powerful enough to be a presence. It's like they don't even exits.

If you are dumb enough to tank an entire wave at level one then yeah minions hurt. Otherwise, at low levels it's far too easy to bypass minions for a kill. From levels 6 and up, people gank as if minions don't exist. You might as well make and arena game with gold/xp over time and have heroes just go at it
Assertion A: Minions are so weak they might as well not exist.

Assertion B: People who take the brunt of multiple minions at low levels are stupid because the minions will cause them to die.

Okay, so we agree that at low levels minions matter, even damage wise.

So how about my other six points about why minions have a visible impact on the game?

Like I said, these are MINIONS, not "dangerous obstacles". In terms of raw power, they are the toddlers to your wrestling gold medalist. They are the drizzle compared to a hurricane (your champion). They are the low-ranking, expendable, suicide-mission grunts in a huge human-wave-tactics setup. Your champion is not supposed to fear them, even en masse. Yet they have their uses. When your champion is but a fledgling he has yet to become powerful enough to completely ignore them. But he uses them to grow, and once he has gained in potential he uses them in other clever ways to maximize his chance of defeating the opponent.

All I'm hearing is, "They need to be more powerful!" and, "They hardly do anything!" But again, why must they be dangerous as long as they have their uses? Does it make the game worse or are you just used to DotA?


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Death4Sale

Junior Member

09-07-2009

definately agreeing with less ranged creeps, I see way too many of them compared to melees


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roliax

Junior Member

09-07-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by gutter View Post

So how about my other six points about why minions have a visible impact on the game?

...

All I'm hearing is, "They need to be more powerful!" and, "They hardly do anything!" But again, why must they be dangerous as long as they have their uses? Does it make the game worse or are you just used to DotA?
I do agree with the points that you made, but those points would not be taken away by buffing the creeps a little bit.

Based from my experiences in LoL, weak creeps allow for too much reckless playing. Before I go any further, I play games to be competitive and I look at things from a competitve point of view where skills and strategies matter in the smallest level.

In Dota:
Creeps are strong enough to hurt you that if you attempt to rush in and attack the enemy, you will take significant damages. Because of this, there is a WHOLE level of skills that a player need to develop to know how to harass properly. I.E. A ranged hero moves in closer by clicking the groud, issue an attack and move away right away.

There is also skills needed in timing a gank. Gank a hero who's standing behind the last few dying creeps of his wave. Or stun a hero running away from your creep wave so the creeps can get a few more hits.

In LoL:
Creeps are so weak that players are able to harass too freely. It takes away from the game by allowing harassment to not require as much skills. And when it comes to ganking in the mid game, a gank will always happen regardless of timing of creeps or position because they just are not a factor.

When I look at the creeps, I see them as a football's offensive linemen. They are there for your protection (in the early game) as well as gold, exp, etc. Take away the aspect of protection, and they are REALLY just free gold, exp, etc and nothing else. The difference in a player's skill should allow one to perform better than the other.

I don't want this to be DOTA and that's why I am playing LoL and not HoN, but I think that these are great points that allow a game to separate the noobs from the average player from the pro players. I.E. A noob who doesn't know how to last hit would generally do worse as an average player who does. But the average player who knows how to play the hero, get the right items but doesnt run any strat will lose to a pro who does. Similarly knowing when to harass and when to gank should require enough skill that it makes a difference.


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Chai

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Member

09-07-2009

i find LoL creeps stronger than dota simply because there's so many of them. The fact that there are more of them and the quantity makes up for their lack of damage.

You've stated that in dota creeps are strong enough to hurt you if u rush in the first few waves. That stands extremely true for LoL as the overall DPS of a creep wave in LoL > Dota.

Furthermore, to harass effectively in LoL, you'd need to do similar things in comparison to Dota, except the creeps in LoL stick to the predator for a longer duration rather than attacking the closest thing in its path. Without the bonuses of orb walk, a player must really time his/her harasses properly as a misclick can lead to more damage than you've just dished out.


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Achenar

Senior Member

09-07-2009

I wouldn't mind seeing how a tiny buff - even just a couple of extra damage per hit - changes the game, honestly. They're not supposed to be dangerous, no, but it only takes a couple of levels before even the squishiest characters can totally ignore them in any given assault.

If a buff doesn't give something positive to the game? It can always be retconned.


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studwalker

Member

09-07-2009

Agreed. They should get s touch more damage points. Otherwise, they are just helping Jax get his stun.


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roliax

Junior Member

09-07-2009

I paid a lot of attention to creep damage during my games today and I've identified that it's not that the creep don't do enough damage, but their damage doesn't scale.

I intentionally fought creeps in the early game to see how it felt and although they don't hurt as much as DOTA, I actually think this level of damage is acceptable if not better than dota's. However, by level 6ish everyone is walking around with 1500 HP and the creeps still do only 25 dmg per hit. That's just gotta change. They need to scale more properly like the towers do. In fact, I really like how the towers scale. Do the same for the creeps and I think the game will be a lot more interesting but more importantly, balanced.

At the moment, the mid game is so chaotic and reckless. It becomes too much or an arena game and people are just ganking recklessly. Too many times I see people chase the enemy pass waves of minion without regard.


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