AS Kennen vs. AP Kennen: FIGHT!

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Cirno9

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Senior Member

04-22-2010

I say if it works for you, then play that way. I, personally go AD, because electric surge's passive is based off of attack damage, it occurs every 5th attack, and it can critical. Get him a lot of attack damage and a phantom dancer, and he deals about 700-800 magic damage every 5th attack, unless you get unlucky and don't crit, but you should be dealing out a lot of physical damage anyway, plus your shurikens and other abilities stunning.


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Hatsunny Mike

Member

04-22-2010

AP is the way to go. It's extremely powerful if fed (enough to wipe out entire teams in a team fight; I was amazed at how easy yet powerful Kennen was to play). I find that Rageblade is enough to keep a good attack speed as well. The AP it provides is also useful.


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TechYS

Senior Member

04-22-2010

I've tested the following combo. It's possible to pull of if you have 2 enemies in your range.

Items:

Sorcerer's Boots
Haunting Guise
Void Staff (sub with Rageblade if enemy is not getting any more MR)
Ryali's Scepter
Nashor's Tooth

With Masteries and Runes, you get Max CD

Your skills have:

Thundering Shuriken: 1.8 sec CD
Electrical Surge: 3.6 sec CD
Lightning Rush: 3.6 sec CD
Slicing Maelstorm: 72 sec CD

Combo:

1. Start off the combo with a Lightning Rush, hitting 2 champions, refund 40 energy back. (130 EN remaining)

2. After you get enough champions hurt, call up Slicing Maelstorm. (90 EN remaining)

3. If enemy is not killing you very fast, wait a seconnd or something but your next move is always Electrical Surge. (45 EN Remaining)

4. 2 enemies refund 50 EN. 3.6 seconds after casting your first Lightning Rush equals 36 EN. Auto-attack or move around to dodge enemies during this 3.6 CD period. (131 EN remaining, from this means even hitting only 1 enemy champion can make this combo work you just have to wait a bit longer)

5. Lightning Rush again. If you team is winning and you know enemies can't kill you, rush towards them for extra damage. Otherwise, its your move to escape the battlefield. If you charge towards them, you get the 40 EN refund. (61 EN remaining)

6. After you get enough champions with that mark of the storm again, re-cast Electrical Surge since it also finishes CD.

Total Damage for Void Staff (pure item dmg):
- 368 + 284*3 + 286 + 368 + 286 = 2160 Dmg

Rageblade at max stack will do stronger damage, but not too far away from the above value.

And yeah, this is AOE burst that happens in less than 10 seconds. Not to mention a stun occurs in the middle. And heck, aside from Lightning Rush where you actually have to aim to be accurate (although in a teamfight people are pretty bunched up together so they're actually easier targets), everything else in that combo doesn't require aiming.

I don't think AD Kennen can pull off this kind of AOE burst.

Edit for correction on time.


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Assparagus

Senior Member

04-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by TechYS View Post
I've tested the following combo. It's possible to pull of if you have 2 enemies in your range.
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Total Damage for Void Staff (pure item dmg):
- 368 + 284*3 + 286 + 368 + 286 = 2160 Dmg
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And yeah, this is AOE burst that happens in less than 5 seconds. Not to mention a stun occurs in the middle.
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I don't think AD Kennen can pull off this kind of AOE burst.
Let's add up the time it takes. Then let's see what AD kennen does.

1. Start rush
2. + 3.6 CD rush, start maelstorm
3. - 1 second rush, +3.6 CD surge
4. -2.6 second rush
5. +3.6 second rush.
6. +3.6 second surge.

Meaning:

1. 0 seconds
2. 1 second-2 seconds (takes time to get there with rush!)
3. 4 seconds (finish rush and use surge)
4. 6.6 seconds (wait for cooldowns)
5. 7-8 seconds (use rush again)
6. 8-9 seconds (use surge again)

So your claim of 5 second burst is completely invalid. It's more like 8-9. I'll say 8 to be generous. Let's see that DPS kennen in action now.
My DPS kennen at level 11 with a Rageblade, boots, lifesteal, and a recurve bow (I actually have a 38% AS runepage on my main, Asstronaut, so I don't need the bow):

Per attack: 150 damage. 1.4 attacks per second at 8 stacks.
In 5 seconds this is 7 attacks.

At the beginning we blow Q, W, E, R (in the correct order of course) for a nice aoe stunburst. Since E is for running into battle, and W, Q, and R all have around .4 second cast times, that brings us to (using .5 for nice numbers):

0.5+0.5+0.5+2(lightning rush time to run in) = 3.5 seconds

in this 3.5 seconds and the next 4.5 seconds after, we can assume that all the spells Q, W, E, R all have done their respective damage and we are now using autoattacks.

We can round 4.5 seconds to 5 seconds to get 7 attacks.
Putting it all together we get:

295 + 280 + 270 + 235 + 175*3 + 5*150 + 120 = 2475 damage in 8-9 seconds.


So are we saying my DPS Kennen at level 11 outDPS's your AP Kennen at level 18?


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Annuvis

Senior Member

04-23-2010

I love how people assume that damage output is all there is in this game.

@Assparagus,TechYS

Who really stands still for 8-9 seconds and lets you wail on them? and not use their abilities?

I can do 3k damage in 8-9 seconds with teemo, but I'd be dead in two hits, so how does this help your proof? AP kennen will have that extra health and survivability that DPS kennen doesn't. Sustained DPS will always win against burst, but again who stands there taking it for 8-9 seconds?

AP kennen gets in does a bit of decent damage and maybe a stun, and gets out or waits for teamates. DPS kennen gets focused and will die in 2 seconds to a semi-decent team. His escape ability is exceptional which is why people love DPS kennen and yet again DPS is always better at turret killing.

Both are valid. One is high burst and more survivability.
The other is sustained damage and low survivability.


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Helixirizms

Junior Member

04-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by xGuns View Post
I've played my DMG/Atk speed Keenen against AP Keenens and you know what they say near end game? They say they see now that DMG/Atk Keenen is better than AP Keenen.

Last 10 games I've played with him I lost twice. Recent winning scores:

9-4-6
17-2-7
13-2-2
25-8-11
17-1-5

The 2 losses:

7-5-7
5-6-4

AP Keenen works as a nuke. You jump in and spam everything. If you're up against a tank or others who are smart enough to dodge your spells you're out of luck, after that his normal attacks are useless. My Keenen has done 900 crit dmg.

I kinda agree with this. Although AP is undeniably way too superior than AS, the moment you lose your round of abilities and the time you wait for them to cooldown, you're pretty much useless. You end up retreating to ally champs or escape to a bush and recall.

On the other hand, going AS gives you something more. You can still use the abilities with little damage of course but your normal attacks get enemies better. Keeps you stay in the fights longer.


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Mesa H

Senior Member

04-23-2010

Hybrid Kennen period


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TechYS

Senior Member

04-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assparagus View Post
Let's add up the time it takes. Then let's see what AD kennen does.

1. Start rush
2. + 3.6 CD rush, start maelstorm
3. - 1 second rush, +3.6 CD surge
4. -2.6 second rush
5. +3.6 second rush.
6. +3.6 second surge.

Meaning:

1. 0 seconds
2. 1 second-2 seconds (takes time to get there with rush!)
3. 4 seconds (finish rush and use surge)
4. 6.6 seconds (wait for cooldowns)
5. 7-8 seconds (use rush again)
6. 8-9 seconds (use surge again)

So your claim of 5 second burst is completely invalid. It's more like 8-9. I'll say 8 to be generous. Let's see that DPS kennen in action now.
My DPS kennen at level 11 with a Rageblade, boots, lifesteal, and a recurve bow (I actually have a 38% AS runepage on my main, Asstronaut, so I don't need the bow):

Per attack: 150 damage. 1.4 attacks per second at 8 stacks.
In 5 seconds this is 7 attacks.

At the beginning we blow Q, W, E, R (in the correct order of course) for a nice aoe stunburst. Since E is for running into battle, and W, Q, and R all have around .4 second cast times, that brings us to (using .5 for nice numbers):

0.5+0.5+0.5+2(lightning rush time to run in) = 3.5 seconds

in this 3.5 seconds and the next 4.5 seconds after, we can assume that all the spells Q, W, E, R all have done their respective damage and we are now using autoattacks.

We can round 4.5 seconds to 5 seconds to get 7 attacks.
Putting it all together we get:

295 + 280 + 270 + 235 + 175*3 + 5*150 + 120 = 2475 damage in 8-9 seconds.


So are we saying my DPS Kennen at level 11 outDPS's your AP Kennen at level 18?
Fine, corrected the time issue.

For all your damage calculations, please factor in true damage after reductions, or at least a valid number that's fairly close. For example, I can say that my value is fairly close to the true value thanks to the MPen I included in the build. The skill damage you list there, well, probably isn't going to hit that much if you have 0 MPen in your item list (and from what I see, only possible MPen is from boots, but you're gonna be putting a berserkers on to boost your AS, am I right?). Oh yeah, doesn't AR hurt your dps damage by even more (you do crit, and probably want to factor in crit damage too, but obviously under influence of AR)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Annuvis View Post
I love how people assume that damage output is all there is in this game.

@Assparagus,TechYS

Who really stands still for 8-9 seconds and lets you wail on them? and not use their abilities?

I can do 3k damage in 8-9 seconds with teemo, but I'd be dead in two hits, so how does this help your proof? AP kennen will have that extra health and survivability that DPS kennen doesn't. Sustained DPS will always win against burst, but again who stands there taking it for 8-9 seconds?

AP kennen gets in does a bit of decent damage and maybe a stun, and gets out or waits for teamates. DPS kennen gets focused and will die in 2 seconds to a semi-decent team. His escape ability is exceptional which is why people love DPS kennen and yet again DPS is always better at turret killing.

Both are valid. One is high burst and more survivability.
The other is sustained damage and low survivability.
Well, probably won't argue with you that much since you do have a valid point, but there are a few things to consider.

1. People's skills, or rather people's overconfidence of shutting you down.
2. Rylai's slow
3. The stun that happens.
4. Any other thing your teammates pull in during your combo.

Yeah I know people don't just stand there and let you hit them, but depending on the circumstances there are just times when your opponents can't run away from you.

And, Kennen is a damage dealer (hence why the discussion on damage he can do). If we're talking about tanks then I wouldn't be counting in damage as that much of an importance.


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Manturion

Senior Member

04-23-2010

If you go AS or AD Kennen you clearly don't know how to play Kennen or LoL for that matter. I see people going AD or AS and will still run around using their spells. Have you realized when you use your ult or lightning rush that you are doing ZERO physical damage because you are running around moving and not doing physical attacks? If you play AD or AS you clearly are not even watching how you play or even bothering to think.


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Cirno9

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

04-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manturion View Post
If you go AS or AD Kennen you clearly don't know how to play Kennen or LoL for that matter. I see people going AD or AS and will still run around using their spells. Have you realized when you use your ult or lightning rush that you are doing ZERO physical damage because you are running around moving and not doing physical attacks? If you play AD or AS you clearly are not even watching how you play or even bothering to think.
AS and AD work like AP Teemo works. It's different, but if you play it right, it can be as good or better than AP Kennen/AD Teemo. And, as I said, if AD works better for you(which is has for me), then use it. You can call me an idiot for not playing AP, but I really don't care. I used AD in one game, and I got 2-3 aces, 24 kills, and 3 deaths.