Welcome to the Forum Archive!

Years of conversation fill a ton of digital pages, and we've kept all of it accessible to browse or copy over. Whether you're looking for reveal articles for older champions, or the first time that Rammus rolled into an "OK" thread, or anything in between, you can find it here. When you're finished, check out the boards to join in the latest League of Legends discussions.

GO TO BOARDS


[Guide] Sivir, Death Blade

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

CaptainClash

Senior Member

05-05-2010

Quote:
QUICKSLIDE:
@CaptnClash: Always a pleasure talking to people who explain themselves and write clearly! If I dont mention a point you made, its because I agree with you 100%. Here we go:


Respect is often a 2 way street :-) You often need to give before you get.

Quote:
I. Feel. Your. Pain! Trust me, its just as bad from the other side. "Guys, I have level 2 OTH and starks, lets group up and push!!!!" and you get nothing. People continuing to farm. You join a side lane, start raping the lane with your teammates, only to watch them BP with full health after the lane opponents die! I hear you. Games frustrating and using teamwork strats in pub games is even worse. Since the nerfs to her and every item that is amazing on her I believe she is best left for premades.
Everything is better in premades, especially specialization. I hate playing a tank because it only takes one or two games where the team makes no use of my efforts for me to get burnt out on that kind of role.

Quote:
Not sure how to respond to this. Ive systematically proven that AP builds are terribly underpowered compared to AD builds on Sivir. Frankly anyone with leaguecraft can figure that out. Just takes more time then people are willing to give to it I guess. Im all for joke builds and what not, but no, AP Sivir is not "good" in a real game. Your going to have to do more then state you think she can do well to sway me, or most people to be honest, to the notion its not.

Your looking at it wrong. Sivir is a unique and VERY powerful champion if used properly. She is the only champion who can do Physical AoE DPS. At the heart of things it whats makes her who she is. Her other abilities abilities simply supplement that. Its how she was designed and how she was scaled. Dropping that aspect of her gameplay in favor of one medium cooldown, medium damage easily avoidable (as far as skillshots go) nuke is, in the end, just absurd. The question at the end of the day is, if your going to grab that stuff, why not use a champion who will have 10x the output with half the items? Joke build? Noob pubstomp, fine. Real game, NO!
Lumping these points together to make a more cohesive argument.

She is NOT the only champion who can do Physical AOE DPS, anyone with a tiamat can. Is it inferior? Maybe, but it's certainly *not* unique. And they can crit.

Now onto her general abilities and their synergies... Why is her physical AOE so much better than her magical AOE? She has 1.5 abilities that help DPS. She has one damage spell. Her passive is useless if you stand there throwing blades, but is effective if you run around throwing the occasional boomerang. I'd call that pretty close to a tie, and it's not obvious by these abilities where she is oriented. Everything else about her works with either. Throw a lich into the picture and you get Physical AOE back, but as a burst instead of DPS. Suddenly all your skills become synergistic and some effective use put to them except your attack speed buff.

Further, the range nerf, and short range in general, makes her somewhat vulnerable while DPS. She is generally kinda squishy, especially with spell shield on cooldown. Squishy + short range + passive doesn't work when dealing DPS + no stuns or slows is not, shall I say, the best recipe I've seen for success.

Now, as to a viable AP build to show what I'm thinking. There are three items I think are core on AP sivir...

Deathfire grasp: It's another nuke that scales with AP, gives you much needed lower cooldown for spamming boomerangs, and a bit of mana regen. The nuke is what you use on the highest HP scum on the other side, especially if they have low/no magic resist. Tanks will hate you.
Lichbane: It gives you your Physical AOE back, but as a burst instead of DPS. Movement speed, magic resist, AP, mana, everything about this item is pure win. You can use spell shield to proc Lich bane between boomerangs for extra physical damage. This works well with your passive, run your burst and keep moving. Stick and move.
Sorc boots: Magic pen FTW.

Good items:

Soulstealer: You will rarely die due to your range and passive, stacks add up fast. Very good unless you're team is getting rolled, then it won't matter what you buy.
Void Staff: More magic pen, essential if anyone on the other team builds anything with magic resist. Not to mention inexpensive.. If nobody buys magic resist you can skip it for another item, but I usually regret not buying a void staff when playing AP anything.
Zhonya's ring: Nothing else compares at massing AP, but you can replace this with something else if you think it'll help you or your team more. Rylai's or abyssal come to mind.

Masteries, 9/0/21. For Magic pen, cooldown, ability power, mana regen, and any other odds and ends in the utility trees you like. Essentially, throw everything to max the main offensive skill.

Runes -

Red: Magic pen
Yellow: dodge or health
Blue: cooldown per level
Purple: Magic pen/Cooldown

That should get you pretty close to max cooldown @ 18 depending on how many quints are magic pen and how many are cooldown/level.

That gives me a boomerang roughly every 5 and a half seconds. The side effect of cooldowns also help make the ult available more often.

Is this a godly build? I don't think so. Is it effective? Small sample of games I've had with it says, yes. It can be effective. Solo queuing I find that I will occasionally have a game where I do terribly (with any build), often when my team gets rolled anyway. Excluding those games (my first attempt was an abject failure), I've done reasonable to very well with this build since and even have received complements in well fought games.

Even you seem to relegate your perfect Sivir to premades, where I find this AP build works fine in solo queue. Though you will often get blamed for a loss (rightfully or not) due to preconceived bias.

Thus, my personal experience declares it plenty viable to play in whatever ELO lvl 30, 200+ wins and +20 win margin is and I'm happy with that.

Quote:
Agreed! But guess what, its still awful on Sivir! I mean fine, in the end its only one mastery point and if he had listed an actual build and said he just threw in AK because he had the point and it is one of the most powerful single points you can spend in masteries, I would have left it alone. If your listing a few masteries that Sivir should have, this is NOT something you list!
See, here you're completely wrong. This one point makes a lot of sense when in context. You assume the context is bogus and then say this is bad based on some other context, in this case, YOUR OWN CONTEXT. If you want magic damage (which he stated he did), you get this mastery point above all others. Period. So he was right to mention it. It fits his goals.

Quote:
Dude, I have no problem with that. If you do it for ****z and giggles because you enjoy it, more power to you. It can be fun to do ridiculous builds and thats fine.
You didn't seem to quite understand. I do not *enjoy* getting my face stomped in, ever. I *enjoy* effective, but not wildly popular builds. After I've mastered a power build I like to explore the outskirts of viability while still being effective in my own way. I enjoy AP Teemo, AP Sivir. Both of which can work well, but do leave some things to be desired with some types of teams and against some types of teams.

When I zero into an effective build, I usually win some 55-60% of my games. I don't know where that puts my ELO. I'm often not all-world with 20 kills, but I can help the team, get some wins, and have fun doing it. And usually be effective in a loss as well. I've had games as AP sivir that I went 5/1/25 - win. Some where I went ballpark 15/2/8 in wins and losses. Sometimes I get the kills, sometimes I mostly only get assists, but one thing that's fairly constant is that I rarely die and I usually get a good stack off one or the other. I always try and be where the action is, and kill the creeps as an afterthought to that when the laning phase ends. It's a fairly fun toon to play.

Quote:
When you come on a strategy forum and post a guide, which will influence new players, its a pretty crummy thing to post a REALLY bad/joke build, say its dead serious and that its awesome, basically LIE about how the game works, get told your wrong, and just flat out refute it, well, you see where Im going.
Didn't know there were high quality standards, I don't think a high % of players come here to read what's up. I think most learn in the game... Besides, even if I'm wrong, if they give it a go and don't see the success they're looking for, they'll move on to greener pastures.. Relax. I think most understand that random forum posts are a mixed bag.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

EchoRex

Senior Member

05-05-2010

How is this still alive?

Your argument is that AP Sivir is good against other people who are new to the game, or are terrible at the game also. But that entire build hinges upon landing a skill shot twice in one throw.

Yet, even in ideal circumstances for the AP build and less than ideal for the AD build, the AP will deal an order of magnitude less damage and is much less consistent.

Yes, the Guides section isn't for just the "pro" players to exchange ideas. But posting, promoting or even just letting stand a completely misleading guide so that new players and people without a grasp of the mechanics can go and screw a team, yet argue that "the guide said it works" is a complete and total injustice to the entire game community.

Stop. It isn't close to as effective, it isn't even viable. Let it die.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

tocak22

Member

05-06-2010

It is viable. I admit, my first guide sucked... though locket worked on ricochet. Yea, pain.

And got flamed like a mother****er. Can't say I didn't deserve it.

But overall, and as Captain Clash said, AP Sivir is an option, she is twice as vulnerable and has zero ways to fight back with spell shield and blade on cooldown. It is an option though; and I want to atleast make one low ELO guide, if nothing else then for consideration. Why not know that? You can pick all the time, you don't have to discriminate me for posting guides totally out of the "standards"

Hell, as QUICKSLIDE said people might come to my new threads and just downgrade me for the sake of my reputation, which nowadays is lower than zero.

Thanks for taking the time to even let me know what you think. Appreciate it

p.s need to finish the guide.

@Captain Clash - I will look into what you posted. There might be a thing or two I didn't thought about telling, will give you credits at the end of the guide. Cheers =]


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Slide

Senior Member

05-06-2010

CaptainClash:

That was a long writeup man and Im REALLY busy at the office today. Dont know if I will actually get to respond to everything. One thing I wanted to mention, and this highlights most on my points about Sivir:

Lichbane does NOT add its damage to ricochet bounces. It in NO way adds to physical AoE DPS.

No, Tiamat is NOT AoE DPS. Well, it is on twitch while he uses his ultimate, but thats IT.

The AoE on Tiamats is too small to be considered anywhere in the same league as Sivir. When you add in the Tiamat is a TERRIBLE item in general I think we can agree that comparing this to Sivir is, well, absurd.

Sivir does have this Unique property as no one else can do even close to the same thing. Saying Tiamat is AoE DPS like Sivir is like saying Karthuses Lay Waste Ability is AoE in comparison to crowstorm. Technically its true, but when we actually look at them, they are worlds apart.

Point being, you (and most people to be honest, dont feel bad) dont have all the information on Sivirs mechanics. IF Lichbane did carry the bonus damage over to ricochet, it would be worth testing how effective it is. Still, considering how ricochet reduces damage per bounce, I think that one decent powered ricochet every 3 seconds (not that sivir could proc it that often) really wouldnt cut it.

As to the build you mentioned, it goes back to my main issue with AP. If you take that gold, and spend it on a DPS build, you will be 10 times as powerful. If you use an Aura Build, your still WAY more powerful and you increase your teams power at least 2 fold.

Anyways Ill say it again. AP Sivir is a joke build. It is, regardless of what build you use, quite inferior to standard Sivir builds. If you REALLY want to go AP, there are plenty of champions who would be better suited to it. AP Sivir is a waste.

As to you winning with it, well, all I can say is last weekend I stomped 15 games on my smurf with Attack Damage Soraka. Does that mean shes god? No, it means I am better then the people I played against. Keep that in mind, your success with this build is most likely tied more to the skill of the players involved then the effectiveness of the build.

Just so were clear (for some reason tocak22 is still insisting this is actually a viable build):

AP Sivir is a joke build. A Pubstomp build. It is in NO way viable in a game with decent players who are trying to win. Using a build like this is simply lowering your overall effectiveness to a point where you are a detriment to your team.

If you guys (those supporting AP Sivir) get up in ranking you will see what happens. I hope you do make it because it is one of the hardest things to convince people of, but so smack you in the face obvious when it happens to you.

Lastly, I think you underetimate how many poeple come here for guides. Im recognized DAILY by people in game. People ive never heard of, seen on the forums or anything. This genre of game has a history of HUGE community participation because the game can be EXCEEDINGLY difficult without the large amount of knowledge required to make informed decisions. I also fully believe that a resource such as guides should give accurate information to those who come looking. Giving false information can only hurt the community after all. Considering how difficult teh game is, a LOT of people are turned off very early. If they decide to come get some help before quitting, try something like AP Sivir, get STOMPED (because even at low ELO, if you dont know how to play, playing a sub par build makes it REALLY hard on you) and just flat out quite.

I do what I do to keep that from happening.

@ToCak22: The best thing you can do for your forum rep right now is put a disclaimer on the guide that it is a "pubstomp" or "low ELO" or "joke build" guide, delete your crazy rage post insulting me (I will delete my quote of it so it is actually not present on the forums) and put a link to the Aura Sivir guide for people looking for a Tryhard build. Dont make any new threads and build your reputation replying to other threads with well though out questions or suggestions. After a couple weeks, everyone will frget your initial "faux pas".

Cheers,
QUICK

EDIT: CaptClash: I just saw the pst on page 3 saying youve never tried AD Sivir. Have you tried Aura Sivir or only played AP Sivir? Seems kinda silly to me to say one type of build is viable without having played the other. Ive played pretty much every build you can possibly think of with Sivir, even some unique team specific builds ment to compliment certain champions, just to see if its better. I came to the conclusions I have after much testing AND mathcraft.

Point being, give the other builds a GOOD try before deciding whats viable. Once you see what Sivir can do with a proper build you will most likely change your mind on AP Sivir. Shes REALLY UP compared to "God Tier Aura Sivir" even if its not quite as god tier as it used to be.