[Guide] Sivir, Death Blade

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Slide

Senior Member

05-03-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by theskunk View Post
Well, I think you sunk his battleship, and then some.
That was the idea. You never know what type of person is on the other end and I didnt want to spend yet more hours explaining to yet another person why all of this is so bad.

Harshness shows certainty. These are not ambiguous claims I make, they are tried tested and true. I and a lot of other players have done a LOT of work on dissecting Sivir. It would be a shame if that were lost due to something like this.

Tis the nature of forums unfortunately. If your nice and beat around the bush, people argue with you.


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Skimox

Junior Member

05-03-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by QUICKSLIDE View Post
I checked his other posts before I responded as I always do.

No, he wasnt trolling, he was serious.

My response was justified.
Quickslide,
Your response was justified yes. Your methods were not. There is never an acceptable excuse for such abuse. I am certain it is against the code of conduct for these boards. You of course were not the only one guilty of such, but since your viewed as a community leader, you are to held more accountable than the rest. Be an example.

Your guides are quite good, and as a Sivir player I use them quite extensively. Which is the main reason im replying now. Do not ruin your rep as a Sivir guide, and become known as a flamer.

If teaching the community is something you hope to do, you need to realize that this is not the way to do it. Teaching is an ongoing project. You cannot simply put out the reading material and call it a day. There will always be someone that needs more info, or another perspective or whatever.

The OP could have, if approached correctly been swayed and taught. However the ineffective teaching method you have displayed here has just made him mad and unwilling to listen.

Everyone deserves more chances, him, you, me... whoever. Please continue working in the community, but with this in mind.

Teaching with compasion > teaching with abuse


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CaptainClash

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

05-03-2010

Thought I'd add a few points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by QUICKSLIDE View Post
OK Im back with a scalpel and clamps. Lets get at this:

Sivir is whats non as an off carry or a support carry. She is used to support your main carry both through buffing them and increasing your teams pushing ability so you and your team can get at enemy towers as quickly as possible.
[rant] Which is kind of ironic why I find so many Sivirs with their support build, off trying to solo lanes and towers during much of the post lane phase, even when there are teamfights occuring.. So much so I find it infuriating. If you're support, then support! Stick to the carry like glue if there is even a whiff of a team fight instead of running off pushing a lane whenever you feel like it, forcing your team to fight 4v5... A nunu keeping bloodboil on the carry and slowing the target is much more effective support than a Sivir on the other side of the map.

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Trying to make her ANY sort of killer is full of fail. The one and only reason this is true is due to the fact that if you want to make a killer, ANY other DPS'er will be more powerful.
As a DPS killer, I agree with this. AP can do reasonably well I think.

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FAIL. Rule of Thumb: If a champion has only 1 ability that scales from AP, they DO NOT make good AP champs. They dont even make good hybrid champs. They just flat out dont get enough effect from the gold you spend on AP.
Well, last I checked only 1.5 of her abilities scale on attack damage either. I guess this leaves going to support the "support" role. Her passive is defensive, one skill is defensive, and the ult is a general buff only part of which helps exclusively DPS types. I find that particular style of game play terribly boring, and even bad when there's nobody around to effectively support, which happens all too often in solo queue...

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I already knew you were doing a fail AP build so Im not suprised to see Archaic Knowledge. Waste of a point. BB is only good damage VS enemy champions early game (even if you stak AP) and the 15% penetration will amount to nothing early game. Its only really effective when people stack MR.
I think Archaic Knowledge is one of, if not the absolute best points available in the offense tree, at least with anyone depending in any way on any kind of magic damage. I'd take it over even the last point in the tree - 5% more damage. Even at the *base* magic resist of 30 that everyone starts with, that's 4.5 magic pen. That's more magic pen than 2 quints or half the Marks could give you. And it scales! From *one* mastery point! It's a *steal*.

Next, AP Sivir is not an auto-fail. I've played it with reasonable degrees of success and even have received many complements from my team for my playing AP Sivir well. You have to be reasonably good at positioning the boomerangs. During long bouts of team stare downs, that often occurs when nobody can or wants to really "initiate", they can be downright devastating to the other team's staying power. Nothing like slicing their carry's health down by 1/3rd to half in one go and making them port back.

Is she most optimally played this way? You suggest otherwise and you may well be dead on right with certain team compositions.. However, my play style is not always built for "optimal" and I LIKE it that way. I play for fun, and AP Sivir can be fun and contribute fairly reasonably to team success. She is fairly low risk, doesn't feed if played well, and does respectable AOE damage. And it's hell to lane against if you can't manage to get away from the boomerangs.

You may rage "low ELO noob" or "only in low ELO". I have no idea what such accusations mean since nobody can even view ELO. Just a random insult I think. If pure only optimal builds on the few most powerful toons is all that's "viable" in high-ELO, you can keep your high ELO - I usually play games for fun factor while being at least competitive (or at least that's the goal). Maybe I should write an AP Sivir guide...

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More ultra noob cooments. Runes are VERY important and can make or break a build. I do have to say though that gold over 10 runes are THE WORST runes you can use. They are 100 fold worse on Sivir, the best farmer in the game. 1 gold every 10 seconds. 6 gold a minute. 300ish gold in a LONG game. Yeah, thats worth your quint spots you noob. On a champ that has no problem getting gold.
I agree runes are good, and incredibly helpful. But lets be accurate here, in 25 minutes (basline game time for SR) you will receive 25*60/10*3 = 450 gold. I can't really name, off the top of my head, a quint set worth over 450 gold in equivalent items @ level 18. And it's just gravy from there. But you have a point that Sivir doesn't have gold issues. This might be better suited for a toon that struggles getting reliable solid income and usually will not fill out the inventory in a typical game.

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Hey thats good noob. Most ultra noobs swear by ricochet early game. However, you are wrong on spellshield. You need one level of it in almost every situation. No more. You need to start putting points into ricochet so its at a decent level when it comes time to use it (mid game).
I find a lot of players rely on appearances and visuals more than actual performance. I don't get the obsession with attack speed I see on so many. I would put this in the same bucket. But it can still work when coupled with skill in other areas. Most players do not choose an optimal route, but variety is the spice of life :-)

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Only smart thing youve said so far. Yes, Sivir turns on ricochet when attacking towers to annihilate incomming creep waves. Unfortunately your noob and dont realise that she should be doing this as of mid game (level 10) and you want at least 3 in ricochet by then in order to make it worthwhile.
One boomerang can wipe out the entire incoming creep wave, with a bit of AP @ level 9.

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This is just a complete waste of space in the guide. Considering how much information you left out and how little explaining you did, im kinda pissed you wasted time writing this.
And I'm sorta annoyed you would personally insult someone because you think your way is the best. Respectfully, using your own criteria it may well be, but the world doesn't evolve around you sir. I don't like some things about the build too, I can point them out but I don't need to make it personal and demean myself by lacing it with personal insults. His personal experience says it works, you can respectfully lead him to your perceived better path. It's up to him if he takes it, you can't beat it into him...

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Saphire crystal? I already know your going for a bad build but thats just stupid.
I think Saphire crystal would be okay if going for a catalyst.. Mostly on AP chars. I tend to like the regen as you say, but I'm not really a chalice fan.

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You have 1 ability that works with Rylais. It will use the 15% slow, has a 9 second cooldown and a 0.75 AP ratio. For this, you spend a rediculous amount of money? Thats absurd.
Don't shortsell the skill. It's a long range skillshot, how many *ultimates* have better range and AOE damage? With the AP scaling and cooldown you must consider that you can double hit with it and it's AOE. Double hit is effectively 1.5 AP (or just shy of that if you include damage reduction), or 4.5s ave cooldown, take your pick. AOE means you can, potentially, hit the whole other team. The skill rocks on all accounts if you can use skill shots reasonably well.

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Against decent players it wont even guarantee you land the second part of BB. Im, sure it works great against noobs though. Of course, everything does.
In the laning phase I've seen some good dodgers. Dodging boomerangs is a skill in itself that noobs never have, and experienced players *sometimes* have. You are not automagically a noob if you struggle to dodge a good boomeranger. Getting double hits is also a skill, if you get the distance right you cannot really avoid the return path if you didn't avoid the first one to begin with.


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Shalcker

Junior Member

05-03-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainClash View Post
[rant] Which is kind of ironic why I find so many Sivirs with their support build, off trying to solo lanes and towers during much of the post lane phase, even when there are teamfights occuring.. So much so I find it infuriating. If you're support, then support! Stick to the carry like glue if there is even a whiff of a team fight instead of running off pushing a lane whenever you feel like it, forcing your team to fight 4v5... A nunu keeping bloodboil on the carry and slowing the target is much more effective support than a Sivir on the other side of the map.
Solo-pusher Sivir works pretty decently (i'm currently at 136/81 W/L playing pretty much that every game... it had 2/1 W/L ratio for long time until i hit losing streak). Sivir definitely doesn't need teamfights to get gold and carry her team in endgame, and using On The Hunt without good initiators AND physical carries on your team is often a waste. Instead you can farm, force enemies to run and switch lanes (making them vulnerable to counterganks and falling behind on xp), push towers to keep them away from your base, and run away with spellshield or good bush usage. After a while towers go down before anyone can reach you, and you can even solo some champions coming for you now and then. You die alot, but ultimately your team wins, and you're gaining gold at faster rate then anyone killing you.

But as aura support build, it needs your team, just in different way. Either your team pushes another lane, waits at side bushes (since you don't need any help pushing) and catches anyone coming to gank you, or just defends and turret-dances with enemies so that you can see when they fall back to intercept your push.

Trying to teamfight 4v5 is not a good tactic for remaining 4 people with solo-pusher Sivir, though with good amount of cc on your team that can work too. But if it's 4v5, that means there is noone to stop your push... and if that happens you win pretty fast. You don't need to win teamfights to win the game, after all. And having you dying at different rate then the rest of your team prevents occasional aces too

The only problem is sometimes your team tries to teamfight, sees that it loses (with or without you - you're far from being automatic teamfight winner even when nearby and with ult up), then presses surrender, which happens too often.
The worst of which was when i solo pushed right to enemy nexus, getting BOTH enemy nexus turrets down while enemies were pushing our base, and in the end we had one Nexus tower standing... they had none... and 4 people on my team pressed surrender (they were trying for long time, it was failing 3/2).... while having both TF and Pantheon. Gah, why those people even play?

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As a DPS killer, I agree with this. AP can do reasonably well I think.
Sivir IS carry too. She can kill, she just needs On The Hunt available for decent chance of success, and to be able to spellshield enemy nuke/disable. Think of On The Hunt as a slightly weaker version of Trist Rapid Fire doubled as escape/chasing ability, and you'll see how it can act as "carry".


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tocak22

Junior Member

05-03-2010

@QUICKSLIDE

Do you masturbate when you rant around forums? Or does that make you "pro" ... you took so much time to decompose my guide it literally shows a billboard on your forehead "FORUM MANIAC REPORT ME"

Get a life. Don't use my guide if you have a better one. My Sivir kicks ass, Ricochet did work with Locket. Runes aren't THAT important to me ( I just like more gold, im greedy ). I want to relax and toss blades and see how people's champions die.

Also, noob fetish? You seem to like calling folks noobs.

And take an IQ test. If you score more than 30, make a party.

@
Skimox

I've been here since beta, but don't stalk forums or write guides often. I agree, my way of seeing how to play are my own. You got your own; if it works for you - fine.

@theskunk and @Zagzax

Yum. More idiots

@Ralk

What's trolling? And I'm serious.

Thanks for your posts. It took you time and effort to write. Even if it was useless flaming. Can't blame you if you read better guides than mine. Thanks all - quickslide, **** a tree and visit some anger management classes.


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EchoRex

Senior Member

05-03-2010

Your AP Sivir does exponentially lower damage than an AD Sivir, completely and irrefutably provable lower damage.

And that is ignoring how the damage is inconsistent to land in your build against any non bot.

Ricochet does not proc Locket, no toggle ability can proc it, on any champion.

Stone blind stupidity is not an argument against how the mechanics and abilities work.


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DJTK

Senior Member

05-03-2010

AP build Sivir does not work. Period. Please go and study Sivir some more before posting such an awful guide with terrible information.

If you actually believe this works then you are playing against completely terrible players. Even avg ELO games this wouldn't work.


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Slide

Senior Member

05-03-2010

Whoa, lot of action. Ill try and get to everything.

@Skimox: Dude, agreed. Though youve got to admit, its extremely irritating to watch someone attempt to undo your hard work. Im not perfect and sometimes **** happens. Idiocy is my pet peeve. Refusing to acknowledge your mistakes when they are pointed out to you just sets me off. I certainly went a little haywire with the insults this time around, and Ill try and tone it down.

Not in this post though. Dudes gone a little far.

@CaptnClash: Always a pleasure talking to people who explain themselves and write clearly! If I dont mention a point you made, its because I agree with you 100%. Here we go:

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Which is kind of ironic why I find so many Sivirs with their support build, off trying to solo lanes and towers during much of the post lane phase, even when there are teamfights occuring.. So much so I find it infuriating. If you're support, then support! Stick to the carry like glue if there is even a whiff of a team fight instead of running off pushing a lane whenever you feel like it, forcing your team to fight 4v5... A nunu keeping bloodboil on the carry and slowing the target is much more effective support than a Sivir on the other side of the map.
I. Feel. Your. Pain! Trust me, its just as bad from the other side. "Guys, I have level 2 OTH and starks, lets group up and push!!!!" and you get nothing. People continuing to farm. You join a side lane, start raping the lane with your teammates, only to watch them BP with full health after the lane opponents die! I hear you. Games frustrating and using teamwork strats in pub games is even worse. Since the nerfs to her and every item that is amazing on her I believe she is best left for premades.

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As a DPS killer, I agree with this. AP can do reasonably well I think.
Not sure how to respond to this. Ive systematically proven that AP builds are terribly underpowered compared to AD builds on Sivir. Frankly anyone with leaguecraft can figure that out. Just takes more time then people are willing to give to it I guess. Im all for joke builds and what not, but no, AP Sivir is not "good" in a real game. Your going to have to do more then state you think she can do well to sway me, or most people to be honest, to the notion its not.

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Well, last I checked only 1.5 of her abilities scale on attack damage either. I guess this leaves going to support the "support" role. Her passive is defensive, one skill is defensive, and the ult is a general buff only part of which helps exclusively DPS types. I find that particular style of game play terribly boring, and even bad when there's nobody around to effectively support, which happens all too often in solo queue...
Your looking at it wrong. Sivir is a unique and VERY powerful champion if used properly. She is the only champion who can do Physical AoE DPS. At the heart of things it whats makes her who she is. Her other abilities abilities simply supplement that. Its how she was designed and how she was scaled. Dropping that aspect of her gameplay in favor of one medium cooldown, medium damage easily avoidable (as far as skillshots go) nuke is, in the end, just absurd. The question at the end of the day is, if your going to grab that stuff, why not use a champion who will have 10x the output with half the items? Joke build? Noob pubstomp, fine. Real game, NO!

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I think Archaic Knowledge is one of, if not the absolute best points available in the offense tree, at least with anyone depending in any way on any kind of magic damage. I'd take it over even the last point in the tree - 5% more damage. Even at the *base* magic resist of 30 that everyone starts with, that's 4.5 magic pen. That's more magic pen than 2 quints or half the Marks could give you. And it scales! From *one* mastery point! It's a *steal*.
Agreed! But guess what, its still awful on Sivir! I mean fine, in the end its only one mastery point and if he had listed an actual build and said he just threw in AK because he had the point and it is one of the most powerful single points you can spend in masteries, I would have left it alone. If your listing a few masteries that Sivir should have, this is NOT something you list!

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Next, AP Sivir is not an auto-fail. I've played it with reasonable degrees of success and even have received many complements from my team for my playing AP Sivir well. You have to be reasonably good at positioning the boomerangs. During long bouts of team stare downs, that often occurs when nobody can or wants to really "initiate", they can be downright devastating to the other team's staying power. Nothing like slicing their carry's health down by 1/3rd to half in one go and making them port back.
And I still maintain that had you used a real build in those games, you would have destroyed the other team instead of having said face-offs.

Theorycrafting random situations aside, my point in all of this is, Sivir is a HELL of a lot more effective using pretty much ANY build other then an AP build.

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Is she most optimally played this way? You suggest otherwise and you may well be dead on right with certain team compositions.. However, my play style is not always built for "optimal" and I LIKE it that way. I play for fun, and AP Sivir can be fun and contribute fairly reasonably to team success. She is fairly low risk, doesn't feed if played well, and does respectable AOE damage. And it's hell to lane against if you can't manage to get away from the boomerangs.
Dude, I have no problem with that. If you do it for ****z and giggles because you enjoy it, more power to you. It can be fun to do ridiculous builds and thats fine.

When you come on a strategy forum and post a guide, which will influence new players, its a pretty crummy thing to post a REALLY bad/joke build, say its dead serious and that its awesome, basically LIE about how the game works, get told your wrong, and just flat out refute it, well, you see where Im going.

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You may rage "low ELO noob" or "only in low ELO". I have no idea what such accusations mean since nobody can even view ELO. Just a random insult I think. If pure only optimal builds on the few most powerful toons is all that's "viable" in high-ELO, you can keep your high ELO - I usually play games for fun factor while being at least competitive (or at least that's the goal). Maybe I should write an AP Sivir guide...
Well, its quite easy to explain. Make a smurf. Play some games. Newbie Island (where stuff like this works well) is noticeably different from low ELO (right after you get forced out of newbie island at 13) which again is quite different from mid and blah blah blah. When I played Sivir and ONLY Sivir, super tryhard all the time, I was somewhere between mid and high ELO. Builds like this LOSE YOU THE GAME at that level. Since I stopped tryharding and just play whatever, Im in a lower bracket and its very noticeable. Both in skill of players and picks of champions. Even at that level, a build like this would lose you the game. Hence all my other conclusions.

So, my point is, the ranking system is a very real thing and while you cant tell where exactly your placed, you can CERTAINLY tell what level you play at. If your a "for fun" player, chances are your somewhere in low-mid. I do not mean that as an insult, please dont take it so. Its just the way things are.

That being said, I agree I was too ruff on the guy. As stated I just REALLy have problems with idiocy and he got hit with the bat.

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I agree runes are good, and incredibly helpful. But lets be accurate here, in 25 minutes (basline game time for SR) you will receive 25*60/10*3 = 450 gold. I can't really name, off the top of my head, a quint set worth over 450 gold in equivalent items @ level 18. And it's just gravy from there. But you have a point that Sivir doesn't have gold issues. This might be better suited for a toon that struggles getting reliable solid income and usually will not fill out the inventory in a typical game.
You know, if you started the game with that money, youd be right, they would be GREAT runes. Still not the choice for Sivir as she just flat out doesnt need it. Regardless, the main point is that the Avarice runes are bad because they take up space that could be used making you more effective right away. There are a LOT of threads that go into great detail, and math, as to just how horrible these are. If your really interested you can look them up.

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I find a lot of players rely on appearances and visuals more than actual performance. I don't get the obsession with attack speed I see on so many. I would put this in the same bucket. But it can still work when coupled with skill in other areas. Most players do not choose an optimal route, but variety is the spice of life :-)
I can only assume your referencing taking SS instead of Ricochet. Im not sure what point your making, but I assure you, as far as effectiveness goes, you NEED some levels of ricochet by midgame. I mentioned Sivirs unique property and not taking advantage of that (nevermind leaving it to level last) is just, well idiocy.

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One boomerang can wipe out the entire incoming creep wave, with a bit of AP @ level 9.
Or you could just use a real build and autoattack twice with ricochet while the BB does its thing and get the same effect, without wasting your potential on AP items. Adding AP to BB to clear creeps is, you guessed it, idiotic. You could NOT build any items on Sivir and shed still annihilate creep waves faster then a lot of champs.

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And I'm sorta annoyed you would personally insult someone because you think your way is the best. Respectfully, using your own criteria it may well be, but the world doesn't evolve around you sir. I don't like some things about the build too, I can point them out but I don't need to make it personal and demean myself by lacing it with personal insults. His personal experience says it works, you can respectfully lead him to your perceived better path. It's up to him if he takes it, you can't beat it into him...
Agreed, I went to far with the insults.

Again my contentions come from him stating false information showing his lack of understanding of the game, saying that its actually effective against good players, and being arrogant (without having earned the right too :P) when told he was flat out wrong. And may I remind you, not about subjective things (opinions) about actual PROVABLE facts.

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I think Saphire crystal would be okay if going for a catalyst.. Mostly on AP chars. I tend to like the regen as you say, but I'm not really a chalice fan.
Irrelevant, were taking about Sivir and on Sivir, its not great. Catalyst is a great item but Sivir really can do better. Locket is just wrong though and hes buying this first to eventually make a locket.

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Don't shortsell the skill. It's a long range skillshot, how many *ultimates* have better range and AOE damage? With the AP scaling and cooldown you must consider that you can double hit with it and it's AOE. Double hit is effectively 1.5 AP (or just shy of that if you include damage reduction), or 4.5s ave cooldown, take your pick. AOE means you can, potentially, hit the whole other team. The skill rocks on all accounts if you can use skill shots reasonably well.
Its my favorite skill on Sivir. Im not shortselling it at all, if you go read my diatribes on sivir you will see that I have examined and played with it more then enough to know EXACTLY how effective it is, at every point of the game, with or without AP.

For your example, I simply restate that the gold you spend getting that damage and cooldown would make you more effective spent on AD.

Lastly, this idiot has no cooldown in his build. Aside from the fact that a good AP build is bad on Sivir, this one is just teribad.

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In the laning phase I've seen some good dodgers. Dodging boomerangs is a skill in itself that noobs never have, and experienced players *sometimes* have. You are not automagically a noob if you struggle to dodge a good boomeranger. Getting double hits is also a skill, if you get the distance right you cannot really avoid the return path if you didn't avoid the first one to begin with.
Uhh Im sorry man but as you play better and better opponents this is exactly what happens. Once you start playing really good opponents they WILL dodge your BB, thet WILL feint out your SS and all kinds of other things. You get 1 hit with it 80% of the time. Ive always said it takes skill landing your BB's and ive explained plenty of ways to get as many as you can in and if they really are good dogers, how to use BB most effectively at that point.

What Im saying is, its a great skill, I love it, its a very powerful tool for Sivir. It is NOT a good enough nuke to be your main offense. Its just flat out not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tocak22 View Post
@QUICKSLIDE

Do you masturbate when you rant around forums? Or does that make you "pro" ... you took so much time to decompose my guide it literally shows a billboard on your forehead "FORUM MANIAC REPORT ME"

Get a life. Don't use my guide if you have a better one. My Sivir kicks ass, Ricochet did work with Locket. Runes aren't THAT important to me ( I just like more gold, im greedy ). I want to relax and toss blades and see how people's champions die.

Also, noob fetish? You seem to like calling folks noobs.

And take an IQ test. If you score more than 30, make a party.


Thanks for proving my point scrub.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tocak22 View Post
@Skimox

I've been here since beta, but don't stalk forums or write guides often. I agree, my way of seeing how to play are my own. You got your own; if it works for you - fine.
Well, I (and most people no doubt) think your lying. People who have been on the forums since closed beta (like me and many others) can say this without doubt, you on the other hand are just using this to try and defend yourself as you realise you have no real arguments or defense to provide. This is because your an idiot and your guide is bad.

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Originally Posted by tocak22 View Post
@theskunk and @Zagzax

Yum. More idiots

@Ralk

What's trolling? And I'm serious.
These are more people telling you how wrong you are. If you wont take my word for it, take theirs or the MANY other people who have told you how wrong you are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tocak22 View Post
Thanks for your posts. It took you time and effort to write. Even if it was useless flaming. Can't blame you if you read better guides than mine. Thanks all - quickslide, **** a tree and visit some anger management classes.
Your welcome man, its always a pleasure to educate children. L2P.


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CaptainClash

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

05-05-2010

Ahh, pushing... The nitty gritty. I have a perspective on that, bare with me here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
Trying to teamfight 4v5 is not a good tactic for remaining 4 people with solo-pusher Sivir, though with good amount of cc on your team that can work too. But if it's 4v5, that means there is noone to stop your push... and if that happens you win pretty fast. You don't need to win teamfights to win the game, after all. And having you dying at different rate then the rest of your team prevents occasional aces too
If you could always prevent the 4v5 that would be ideal, but if the other team has good coordination and catches you and forces the issue (initiator or positioning). You're going to annoy me you're not with the team. We may get a tower or two, but they're likely to push some space too on top of their victory, and we may lose stacks/buffs.

You don't need to win teamfights to win the game? Depends on the composition of the teams. Pushing turrets and inhibitors is not auto-win if successful and it often does not overcome, and can even hurt, not performing well or even not excelling in other areas. I played 2 games recently that illustrate the potential pitfalls to pushing for the sake of pushing. They both had hard pushing Sivirs using aura/support builds, and one had a heimer pusher. Both games they took down 2 inhibitors relatively early (15-20 minutes) and we had maybe one tower for our efforts, in one they took out all 3 (not simultaneously, but we had net 2 down for a *long* while). They had respectable skills with no glaring weaknesses and we weren't all-world ourselves, made obvious by our allowing the massive pushes into our base. We came back to win, both games, and it's not an unusual state in my experience (depending on my team composition). Why? Because once we hunkered down and the pushing was essentially halted at our base, we weren't much different in the hero kill count (but we were definitely a little behind in one), we mostly just got out flanked on the pushes. The end result was really to our advantage as then they were relatively gold starved because their super creeps were killing all our minions instead of their heros. This shoots down two of their lanes for creeping. They didn't have the confidence to jungle our neutrals so they had one lane and their jungle, or fight us in our base (which they tried and consistently lost at). I find that it helps to be more DPS oriented if this occurs, as the creep waves tend to go down easier/quicker to DPS. Push down the inhibitors of caster heavy teams and I find that they're usually done.

Once the inhibitors are back up you're at a sizable, if sensitive due to tower losses, advantage... One of the games I was a Tristana with almost 400 creep kills, afterwards the other team was whining that they were "winning", and then "all-of-the-sudden" Tristana comes out and owns everyone. Yes, it was quite predictable when you feed her with a diet of *2 lanes* worth of exp and gold for 15 minutes and the occasional hero on failed pushes while she gets to sit in her base by the fountain with her team at her beck and call, nearly impossible to kill and farming up a storm. When she's at a 30-40% gold advantage and a Nunu to buff her, she can then 2v1 any combo on the enemy team unless they can initiate with a stun and keep her stunned till death, it's CC and kill her or die. And with a team to support, "Legendary" after "Legendary" was the end result. After two or three team battles we were in their base killing their nexus with little they could do about it, the BD attempts were sniffed out and defeated with no further inhibitor losses.

That was a fun game though, not only because of the "comeback", and being insanely well fed, but we managed to steal the baron buff when they went for it. So many LOLs on that one.

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The only problem is sometimes your team tries to teamfight, sees that it loses (with or without you - you're far from being automatic teamfight winner even when nearby and with ult up), then presses surrender, which happens too often.
When it's a close fight, I think it's a legit concern that the "support carry" or "aura build" be around to, you know, APPLY AURAS TO HEROS. What good are auras if you're going to solo? Even if you're ult is not up, starks+aegis is a sizable buff, especially to DPS. I really fail to see the logic of going solo so much... Successful pushing without controlling other aspects of the game can bite you, and bite you badly.

I don't blame a Sivir who is with the team for a lost fight, but I may yell at one that is on the other side of the map.

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The worst of which was when i solo pushed right to enemy nexus, getting BOTH enemy nexus turrets down while enemies were pushing our base, and in the end we had one Nexus tower standing... they had none... and 4 people on my team pressed surrender (they were trying for long time, it was failing 3/2).... while having both TF and Pantheon. Gah, why those people even play?
Happens to me too, I'm a Trist getting really fat on gold from down inhibitors and the team wants to quit because we're 6 towers behind even though we're doing fine otherwise. As long as we aren't feeding the other team heros while they have more limited creeping for a while and we're competitive, IE not really getting dominated - just out pushed. A fat carry is a big ace card. I've seen this script play out successfully a dozen times.

I don't like to quit until it's really over... Down with quitters!

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Sivir IS carry too. She can kill, she just needs On The Hunt available for decent chance of success, and to be able to spellshield enemy nuke/disable. Think of On The Hunt as a slightly weaker version of Trist Rapid Fire doubled as escape/chasing ability, and you'll see how it can act as "carry".
I've seen a Nunu carry a team... I mean, most heros are capable of carrying if you dominate your lane and snowball enough.

I don't see support-Sivir being a carry. You'd need to go DPS if you want to try that IMHO. I haven't really noticed many successful DPS Sivirs and I've never tried one, so I'm really unfamiliar with it. I'd imagine it could work.


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MBirk

Senior Member

05-05-2010

AP sivir is terrible. Stacking sunfire capes is the correct way to play her.