@Morello/Xypherous: Can we get an update on the stealth remake please?

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Salganos

Senior Member

07-29-2011

I just read the first page.

AWESOME!

Edit: it's a lot like my idea about it working like Teemo standing in brush ... but simpler. That is probably for the best.

Again, awesome.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Evereia

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Recruiter

07-29-2011

O: sounds awesome.
maybe i'll start playing evelynn again :3


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

OJ191

Senior Member

07-29-2011

@Xypherous

If you are thinking about changing oracles (and possibly pink wards? not sure on that one) will this make shaco (and especially) akali, and to a lesser extent vayne and wukong's stealth less hard-countered by oracles/pink wards? A favourite tactic is to have the tank buy an oracle and waddle around in her shroud or next to the squishies so shaco can't blink in so easily, and as an akali player people doing this feels really bad as it essentially removes an integral part of her kit (think if you could buy an item that disabled poppy's ult, poppy players would hate that, or something that just ruined nasus wither.. oh wait.. cough tenacity cough). I mean it's not like shroud is that big, you CAN move away from it as a squishy, and if you do move away she has to reveal to attack, and can be CC'd freely without just restealthing.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

thericecaptain

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Member

07-29-2011

So basically Twitch and Eve aren't really invisible characters anymore? Are they still squishie as heck?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

sXKilo

Member

07-29-2011

For me i think the changes about the stealth is awesome but
lvl 1 stealth = already prem stealth
so wat the point of leveling up stealth?
i think the best opinion is too change twich and eve passive to ''Prema Stealth''
and got the bonus stuff on W like 60% atk speed for twitch and 2 seg or 3 seg 50% slow for eve
and make like a bonus effect on W like Twitch get the poison thing his passive right now and eve 50% reduce dmg from minions or monsters which is right now
or make like leveling stealth makes the enemy ''X'' smaller so u can get closer


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Matt516

Senior Member

07-29-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by IKilo View Post
or make like leveling stealth makes the enemy ''X'' smaller so u can get closer
I like this. I like this a lot. Leveling stealth makes the enemy stealth vision range smaller. That'd be brilliant.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

MindlessLegend

Senior Member

07-30-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Hm. Okay, well, I suppose it's been a while since I've given an update so I'll chime in on this a little:

Following up from last time, the general problem(s) with long term stealth was:

1. There was no way for the opponents to get an inkling of how clever the stealth player was being, and thus there was no good way to get a sense of how that player operates.
2. Stealth is claustrophobic in the way that it makes you play.
3. Stealth gives very powerful scouting information while simultaneously hiding that information from your opponent.

We tried some iterations past the first few tests, with Paranoia, alternate resource bars, footprints, phasing and mark systems but in the end, we settled on the current system because it was the simplest solution for long-term stealth. In short: "Everyone has reduced Oracles, but Evelynn and Twitch are perma-stealthed."

Some Partial Stealth Details

Disclaimer: I fully understand this destroys a *lot* of the current stealth gameplay changes. Unfortunately, through lots of iteration, I was unable to capture the feeling of pure invisibility while in stealth while having fun gameplay. In the end, I decided to opt for a very simple system that was highly understandable over some more fiddling mechanics.

1. Evelynn and Twitch are permanently stealthed when they rank their level one stealth abilities. However, Evelynn and Twitch can be seen when they are within X units of an enemy champion (Slightly under vision range), or when they are within a true sight radius.

If they attack, they are revealed briefly for 2 seconds before going back into stealth.

This 'X' is being adjusted for feel between the two champions. 'X' is smaller than champion vision radius, so you can "stalk" an opposing champion, but it will be farther away.

2. Evelynn and Twitch have a "sight gem" above opponent's, telling them when the enemy can see them or not and whether they are "safe" (green sight gem), "warning - you are close to being seen, but still unseen" (yellow sight gem) or "being seen" (red sight gem.)

Results

Long Term Stealth, in this case, has been removed as a primary initiation mechanic but allows Eve and Twitch to cross minion vision and regular sight bubbles with impunity and sneak into brush patches by circle/stalk their opponents. Their opponents can likewise spot-check areas with their own reveal radius and create zones were stealth characters "probably aren't, otherwise they'd be seen."

The sight gem allows the Eve/Twitch player to take much of the guesswork out of figuring out when they were being seen or revealed and allows them to put more of their thoughts on clever positioning and sneaking around their opponents, especially for lane ganks.

This also lets us make them more combat oriented characters that don't immediately blow up on start. In general, this stealth has proven to be very difficult to use but allows characters to have some bluff gameplay and interesting circle/stalk gameplay in testing. Your characters can still scout, but at a highly diminished effectiveness (due to the increased range.)

In team fights, stealth proved to be less effective than before, so the character's combat viabilities are being looked at through reworks/remakes.

What is blocking us on releasing this:

1. There's a pretty big problem with the concept known as Oracle-Sweeping. We'd want to replace Oracle's elixir with someone that doesn't cause such weird gameplay but as to what would be a *good* replacement is a little up in the air.

2. General particle/kit rebalancing work - We need to heavily redo Evelynn and Twitch's kits and that comes different visuals and graphical effects.

What I am testing right now - Additionally

Sight wards as being partial motion sensors - Sight wards signalling when a hostile is moving nearby?
"Robot Chicken" scout drone
"Wriggles" for supports?

I probably shouldn't do this but as compensation, some sneaks..

Evelynn can have her stun back, because now you have advanced warning of her when she steps in. She might need a short-step-stun in order to successfully initiate. Testing required. Twitch has proven to be a slightly harder problem in internal testing.

As an aside: Hate spike is now awesome (for me, at least). Evelynn now has Champion prioritizing Lurker Spines. This makes her lane less bad.

As usual, feel free to ask questions for a little bit as I stick around. I don't know all the details of the full remake (as Live better understands that new environment). Sorry for the delay, but with Orianna/Champion pipeline and such, this has been somewhat of a lower priority for me.

What about making invisible champs invisible on screen but not on map? So when you see enemy on map you know they there but you can not attack or see them.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

FireitUp622

Senior Member

07-30-2011

Copy SC2. Invisible units can be seen but can't be targeted until they break stealth, but they can still be hit by skill shots and non targettable abilities though.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Triftex

Senior Member

07-31-2011

I do believe oracles and pink wards should be gone, atleast for eve and twitch.
Else they will be shut down just like now, tank buy oracle, if you're carry and you want to push a lane you throw a pink ward.
Hey Eve! Hi Twitch! like my new skin? -Xin Zhao wearing his new rat skin after 3 hiting both of them.

Their problem is that they are too weak to actually do anything if the other player has knowldege of your pressence. You might be able to solo soraka, but not much more than her.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Siigari

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

07-31-2011

I don't get it. What's the point of stealth if champs can see you when you're in their line of sight?