@Morello/Xypherous: Can we get an update on the stealth remake please?

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

RedefinedHD

Member

07-14-2011

Remove Eve and Twitch. and make a new stealth character. v


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Volverbot

Senior Member

07-14-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedefinedHD View Post
Remove Eve and Twitch. and make a new stealth character. v
Redo Eve and Twitch and add a new stealth character


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

xXBlooDYMagEXx

Senior Member

07-15-2011

bump

will it come with the next patch?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

GodEmperorLetoII

Senior Member

07-15-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
The current stealth system, as it stands right now, is far easier to execute successfully than fail at. Stealth, as a mechanic right now, is pretty much has the highest return for one of the lower skil-intensive mechanics. You hit a button, and now you are untargetable.

The reason why the stealth characters are "hard" to play is that this super easy lower-skill mechanic is tied to a character who is tremendously difficult or has tremendously lowered base statistics in order to balance out their skill to effectiveness curve.

This phenomenon creates a weird dichotomy where you don't get better at stealth characters by getting better at using the stealth mechanic. You get better at stealth characters by getting better at learning how to use artifically lowered statistics for balance.

One of the immediate benefits of the new stealth system was that it was hard to use effectively without practice. That's one of the major takeaways that I've really enjoyed. To get better at Evelynn and Twitch, you can *actually* learn to exploit the vision distances and harass abilities that you have. You need to learn how to leverage stealth/your position well to scout and understand how much power being invisible to minions and circling can give you when side-pushing, etc.

While I don't disagree that players *do* need to learn how to counter certain tactics, the skill cost to implement stealth currently is so much lower than the skill cost to counter stealth. Now, we've had to balance that skill cost by putting stealth on artificially weak characters, but the basics of the mechanics means that skill cost for countering the stealth mechanic will always be much much greater than executing stealth. This, in general, gives a terrible sense of where balance is at, because unless players are all above a certain skill threshold and the binary nature of the system starts to take its toll as before that skill threshold, stealth is amazing. Above that skill threshold, stealth is underpowered and frustrating.

I completely agree that these "gaps" need to exist for players to get better at the game, however, the gap here is *so* wide and the initial starting point for using stealth is *so* low, as a mechanic that it's not serving this purpose very well.
You know what can fix that? Proper tutorials. Things like the challenges in Starcraft 2 that Blizzard suggest players play to get a good handle on key components of competitive play. That could easily work for LoL.

- Lasting Hitting Challenge (kill 20 minions in 20 hits, every hit over 20 you lose a point or something and the scoring bases if you're ready to go on or something)

- Watching the minimap (given vision of the entire map, told to watch the mini-map to see when and from where an enemy is coming or leaves a lane)

- Ward Mechanic (not sure here, maybe you get into a map and it tells you to plant wards in certain areas and then encourages you to watch the minimap, so it combines the previous and this one)

- Building For The Situation (fight an AP hero, you're given money and told to build the suggested build first and see how that goes then after failing to build to counter AP and see the difference between sticking with a build order and building for the situation)

etc. Granted I just came up with these in 5 seconds, but you get the idea, ya? I know this isn't a simple "oh hit a button and it'll be out right away" thing, but I think it's something you guys should gear towards instead of nerfing heroes that are fine hard or whatnot.

Though, it's kinda moot in the case of Eve/Twitch cause this rework sounds far more enjoyable to me. Still, I think it's worth considering.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

xXBlooDYMagEXx

Senior Member

07-15-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by GodEmperorLetoII View Post
You know what can fix that? Proper tutorials. Things like the challenges in Starcraft 2 that Blizzard suggest players play to get a good handle on key components of competitive play. That could easily work for LoL.

- Lasting Hitting Challenge (kill 20 minions in 20 hits, every hit over 20 you lose a point or something and the scoring bases if you're ready to go on or something)

- Watching the minimap (given vision of the entire map, told to watch the mini-map to see when and from where an enemy is coming or leaves a lane)

- Ward Mechanic (not sure here, maybe you get into a map and it tells you to plant wards in certain areas and then encourages you to watch the minimap, so it combines the previous and this one)

- Building For The Situation (fight an AP hero, you're given money and told to build the suggested build first and see how that goes then after failing to build to counter AP and see the difference between sticking with a build order and building for the situation)

etc. Granted I just came up with these in 5 seconds, but you get the idea, ya? I know this isn't a simple "oh hit a button and it'll be out right away" thing, but I think it's something you guys should gear towards instead of nerfing heroes that are fine hard or whatnot.

Though, it's kinda moot int he case of Eve/Twitch cause this rework sounds far more enjoyable to me. Still, I think it's worth considering.
that are pretty good ideas :O


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

GodEmperorLetoII

Senior Member

07-15-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by xXBlooDYMagEXx View Post
that are pretty good ideas :O
Thanks, I tend to have one every blue moon -_q


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

p00pfist

Junior Member

07-15-2011

Dear Riot,

this is a complete waste of effort. Please think about what you're doing and how you'll have to change the achievements. You remove the element of surprise from two heroes that needed it badly. Also you're making this game easier in an aspect that didn't need gentle hands from you in the first place.

To counter a twitch or eve you usually bought wards. Now you don't have to do that. Every time they want to surprise you they can't unless it is in a way that all other heroes can. Circling won't work since the damage dealers in the back row will see those heroes turn around and attack them whilst the front rows fall back. So no surprise in the posterior of the battlefield. Jungle stalk won't work since every bush is now a possible threat to you. "The enemy knows I am in the opposing team. This mechanic reveals me if I am too close. He just went into the bush. Is he waiting for me?? I better abandon it." In terms of jungle stalking the new mechanic is completely reversing the advantage the old cloaking had. Not to mention no need for wards.

No surprise on the lane. The enemy team due to proper knowledge of the game is close to the bush and not overextending. What you gonna do? Each time you pop up visible (which now doesn't require oracle anymore, saves so much money for the other team) they'll probably fall back to the bush and the element of surprise is gone. Whilst they will have the upper hand since eve/twitch can't approach the bush without being seen, so back to the own minions. Well no laning enhancement there, again bushes are incredibly fatal. You better buy wards now. Even shifting the cost of wards more to any team now having an eve/twitch robbing them of the (not unfair) advantage they used to have (if it earlier took to buy wards in order to keep eve and twitch from getting kills, well money well spent)

Ashe gets the ability to be incredibly helpful, same goes for tryndamere, karthus(especially), caitlyn, vayne, well all heroes that had to use wards and care in order to turn the tide, now they just have to wait.
Imagine this: you go into the back (which is well hard to do now), the enemy team is moving forth and back, oops they saw you. Ashe pops either volley or her ultimate ultimate, you get hit, are revealed for 2 seconds enough for ashe to attack again and set the next two seconds off revealing you. Ashe now has the perfect distance for her slow ability, killing you fast and without repercussion. In the end you die whilst the rest of the teamfight isn't happening and the carry gets another kill whilst the tank maybe is dying (nice trade off).

The argument of flash. This is okay but every visible champ can flash too and can have the same element of surprise. Completely uncloaking eve/twitch will not change anything.

The distance X! I promise you to regain the element of surprise you'll have to lower X to such an extend that the enemy of your choosing can't react properly. But then again this is the the same underlying principle of eve and twitch as it is now (it just looks fancy however nothing is changed).

Let's discuss the rework of abilities. For starters a charge. If eve can cover the running distance to the prey after being seen, by an extend that if she can't be focused down initially with said charge, then there is no difference in the way she works now. She surprises the enemy some way or the other. Either being cloaked all the time even close distance or being cloaked long distance with a charge. Things are even worse for twitch. Spray and pray will loose all edge since people will just walk out of the shooting distance. So again X needs to be reduced how much ? Well to an extend that makes him hit all spray and pray through but wait a minutes that would be like as it is now.

So the two things I am seeing by your suggestions and posts so far are either rendering twitch and eve useless and making opponents require less skill in taking them down(which probably is the main driving force behind this project). Or you put an incredible amount of effort into just changing the outfit of the same thing.

And here comes the sarcasm. Because this is what you tend to always do. Skins, making the game easier for more people to buy it but less people enjoy it in the long run. Just long enough to make people give you their money until realisation that you kind of cheated them. There was no need to nerf eve and there is no need to rework cloaking. Eve was only ridiculously strong against beginners who didn't have a clue about the game and probably would not invest real life money into this game. You, again, decreased the fun of this game and the skill required to play it. You deprive the tactic of anti-warding eve and twitch and you make the team without said champions don't have to change their play style at all, making the game easier and more boring since a game against twitch and eve will be like a game without them (as they are/have been now).

I am frustrated to see that most of the effort of this company goes into improving and providing nothing of ingame worth but then again this is your business model and you'll have to prepare your employees that as soon as another company brings out another dota derivative that takes a more considering approach to the actual game and problems with it, people are going to loose their jobs.

People still wait for replays.
People still wait for a solution that does not require having 3 clients draining hardware resources in order to play 1 game (one being a falsh client).

P.S. all spelling and punctuation errors found can be kept.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

NinjaGinge23

Senior Member

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Ions03

Senior Member

07-15-2011

so this game goes to ***** mode


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Gamon

Senior Member

07-15-2011

its so good stealthing when u r alone, revealed when anyone nearby

make sense